Race and I’m Running at Anti-Racist Parent - for parents committed to raising children with an anti-racist outlook

Race and I’m Running

by Anti-Racist Parent Columnist Michelle Myers

“Yeah, it’s a race and I’m running,
but somewhere along the lines I lost you—
among the clueless browns,
the clueless blacks,
the clueless yellows—
and what’s worse,
the just-kickin-its,
the just bought-into-its.”
-I was Born with Two Tongues, “Race, and I’m Running,” Broken Speak CD

A few weeks ago while watching “Dancing with the Stars,” my husband tried to get me riled up over a routine that Kristi Yamaguchi and her dance partner were performing which had him dressed in a military uniform and she, his Asian lover, swooning on his shoulder.

I had cringed inwardly when I saw the set-up, but I wanted to just enjoy the moment—just relish something for pure entertainment without the brooding presence of racial stereotypes and hegemonic ideologies.

So when my husband whispered suggestively to me about the “soldier savior” and “What was she thinking?” I shushed him and said that I didn’t want to be Yellow Rage all the time. “She just happens to be Asian, not playing ‘Asian,’” I retorted. But when Bruno, one of the judges, referred to Kristi’s character portrayal in the routine as being a “Madame Butterfly”—which he meant as a compliment of the romantic qualities of their dance—my husband’s head snapped towards me, and said “See? You can’t give white people a pass.” And I could only sigh deeply.

Bruno’s reference to the Puccini opera reminded me that really only white people could find romance in the story of a Japanese woman who gives birth to an American sailor’s baby and then commits suicide when he abandons them and marries a white American wife. But even then, I tried to excuse it. “He didn’t mean it that way”—meaning she wasn’t playing the passive, love-toy of a white man who sees himself as superior to her, her people, and her culture. “What’s happening to you?” my husband wanted to know.

Honestly, I’ve been getting tired. I’m tired of fighting against racism and injustice—it’s a never-ending, exhausting battle. And what’s worse for me is that after years and years of harping and exposing and teaching, I see very little to indicate that any of the work I’ve done has made a difference. Why the hell do our poems “Listen Asshole” and “I’m a Woman, Not a Flava” still resonate so strongly after eight years? Because nothing has changed. Asian and Asian American people still feel dehumanized, exoticized, demonized, invisible, misunderstood. It’s made me bone tired, and I’ve been going soft. A part of me just doesn’t want to be angry anymore.

Not long after the “Dancing with the Stars” incident, I came across a comment in the Letters to the Editor section of The Philadelphia Daily News on Monday, April 21, 2008. It was the day before the Pennsylvania primary and people all over the media had made much-to-do about Obama’s “bitter” remark. Vicki Goodyear from Mantua Township, NJ took issue with another statement allegedly made by Obama:

Here’s another quote from Sen. Obama during his now-famous fundraiser on April 6:

“When people tell me they’re all stressed out about racial discord, well, you know, try slavery for a while.”

Doesn’t that remind you of Pastor Wright? It’s a racist remark if I ever heard one.

And who is the “people” and “you” he refers to—”typical white people,” perhaps?

He needs to brush up on his history. African tribal chiefs gave away their people to be slaves, as trades for gifts. White men wouldn’t have been able to do it without their help.

There are so many revealing ignorant and racist assumptions in this woman’s comment that I don’t know where to begin deconstructing it without turning this post into a dissertation-like, psychological and sociological analysis. What struck me right away, gut reaction-level, was just how defensive this woman was and how she, presumably as a white woman, needed to project her racist guilt somewhere else—asserting not only her racist innocence personally as a contemporary white person but that of her maligned white ancestors. So according to her logic, this is what screams out at me: “How dare Obama tell us to see how we’d feel if we were slaves—as if all white people can’t sympathize with black people or are racist against black people or are responsible for black people. He’s racist for lumping us all together like that and for insinuating we’re racist. In actuality, he’s showing how ignorant he is—isn’t he educated? He needs to hold African people accountable—they betrayed their own people. Black people enslaved themselves—gave themselves to us as gifts. Who doesn’t accept gifts? Nothing racist in that.”

I have heard this argument before from white people, the we’re-innocent-because-Africans-enslaved-their-own-people argument. I can’t even begin to explain to you how angry this makes me. White people who believe this and spread such simplistic and incomplete inaccuracies as historical fact not only are in denial of the true far-reaching and deep-seated ramifications of American slavery (vs. African slavery) as well as the ideological, economic, and political origins of American racist thinking and behavior but also are, at the same time, trying to justify why black people are to be blamed for the condition of their own lives. It’s a classic blame-the-victim rationale which is always rooted in and motivated by the very ideology it seeks to deny—in this case, white racism.

And I get angry because this dishonesty and information twisting and double speak is what my children have to inherit. I get angry because my daughter has to go to school and try to ignore white children teasing her newly cropped locks as an “Afro”—as a hair style to be laughed at or ashamed of—that she shouldn’t love her naturally curly hair. I get angry because my husband believes that in her predominantly white school she is learning to hate herself for having a black father. I get angry because I have to yell at my own white father for using the word “dotheads” when referring to the owners of a local gas station. I get angry because I know there are plenty of racist white people out there who won’t admit to being so.

Recently, I was reading the May/June issue of On Campus, the American Federation of Teacher’s national publication for higher education faculty and professional staff. In “Rolling Back Affirmative Action: State Ballot Initiatives are a Multiedged Sword,” Barbara McKenna discusses the Civil Rights Initiative and explains how, despite its name, it is actually a ballot measure intended to eliminate and outlaw affirmative action programs designed to ensure equal access to educational and economic opportunities for historically oppressed people in the United States. She describes how, in 2006, the measure passed in Michigan despite the attempts of One United Michigan, a bipartisan coalition, to educate Michigan voters about the real purpose of the Civil Rights Initiative (CRI). The surprisingly large margin by which the CRI passed (58% yes, 42% no) taught the organizers of One United Michigan a significant lesson about voters and issues of race. As Julie Matuzak, AFT Michigan political coordinator, asserts to McKenna, “[P]olls can’t be trusted on issues of race. People tend to provide the politically correct answer but behave differently when they vote.” Matuzak continues, “’Race is a complicated issue. . . . A political campaign cannot change a racially divided culture.”

I hadn’t meant to bring the post around to politics, but I think, whether he intended to or not—whether he’s been trying to be a racial bargainer rather than racial challenger (see Shelby Steele’s articles and book on this)—Barack Obama has forced people to confront and discuss race. And all the deep-seated hidden prejudices are coming to the fore, from elderly white people in West Virginia publicly saying they’ll never vote for a “Muslim” to Governor Ed Rendell’s admission that some white PA voters are not ready to vote for a black president to the Clintons’ various attempts to discredit Obama through race baiting and patronizing remarks to my dear Vicki Goodyear’s remarks acquitting white responsibility for American slavery.

The fear of black leadership as a real presence in this country has the white mainstream media scrutinizing the black church, the current state of black nationalist thinking and activism, and Obama’s identity as a black man vs. mixed vs. half-white. Just how much is he “one of us”? That “one of us” connotes so much more than physical appearance: it means “one of us” in thought, behavior, and action. And the war has just begun on that point, as Hillary Clinton and her supporters have made clear.

I know I have rambled a long way from “Dancing with the Stars” and defending my right to be race-free for 2 hours a week. But the point is, it’s impossible for me to be race-free. I see it in politics. I see it on the streets of Philadelphia. I see it in my daughter’s eyes. I see it in the multi-hued skin of my family. I see that race will become even more of an explosive issue in the months to come. And while I don’t have to be angry about it all the time, I know I must be vigilant. And when the time calls, no matter how tired I am, I must be ready to fight.

Michelle Myers holds a Ph.D. in English from Temple University, specializing in Asian American Literature. She is a founding member of the spoken word poetry group Yellow Rage, which was featured on HBO’s RUSSELL SIMMONS PRESENTS DEF POETRY, and which recently released its second CD: HANDLE WITH CARE, VOL. 2. She is also a founding member of the performance collective Asians Misbehavin’. She is currently an Assistant Professor at Community College of Philadelphia and Grants Coordinator at SEAMAAC (Southeast Asian Mutual Assistance Associations Coalition). Michelle lives in NJ with her husband, Tyrone, and their three children: Myong, Victor, and Vanessa.

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Comments

Jae Ran wrote:

I knew I was going to love this post the second I saw the 2Tongues quote.

I would add more but I think you’ve really expressed so much of what I’ve been feeling and thinking about race and parenting multi-racial children lately.

I think another quote from the same 2Tongues piece is apt -

“If this is a race, then where is that . . . finish line?”

Posted 19 May 2008 at 11:35 am ¶
Megan wrote:

Thanks for a very thoughtful post. I’m a black woman and though I’m not as much of an activist as so many people out there who are fighting the good fight, I too get tired of examining and explaining; examining the motives of people and explaining where I’m coming from.

But I try to maintain some sort of hope that it will all get better.

Posted 19 May 2008 at 12:19 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>And while I don’t have to be angry about it all the time, I know I must be vigilant. And when the time calls, no matter how tired I am, I must be ready to fight.

God YES - Mark me as another guest at the Anti-Racism Fatigue bed and breakfast. It is good to hear what I know deep down, that there are more people out there and that we all get tired of being the one to open our mouth, especially when we may be the only one.

Some of my energy returns when my spouse, who has come a long way on detecting race/ethnicity bias (we’re working on the sexism radar), is the one pointing things out first. It reminds me that he often can be and is an ally (to clarify: although an ethnic minority, he didn’t really grow up thinking of himself as one, and that often shows in his viewpoints and language towards race/ethnicity), that it’s not just me.

Posted 19 May 2008 at 2:48 pm ¶
Stephanie wrote:

I am a 42 year old African displaced in America(otherwise known as African American) and I have been wearing an afro for 10 years now. Prior to that for 20 years I permed my hair, unconsciuosly uncomfortable with my own hair…how’s that for brainwashing?. I also used to teach elementary to junior high math and computers

Tell your daughter from me that she is brave and strong to defy the silly classmates and the pull to conform and yeah to her for doing her own thing.

and tell her that children often make fun of that which they are jealous of.

Tell her to rock that hair like she is Queen of Sheba…

Posted 19 May 2008 at 3:53 pm ¶
Yoli wrote:

I could have written the above post by Lyonside. I have a husband too that has come a long way in detecting the race/ethnicity bias. He, like your husband is a minority that grew up not identifying himself as one. Thank you for reminding me that even if we feel we are the only ones fighting, it matters.

Posted 19 May 2008 at 5:07 pm ¶
Snafu Suz wrote:

“I get angry because I know there are plenty of racist white people out there who won’t admit to being so.”

What is your definition of racist? That’s a sincere question. I am a white person who would be horrified if someone thought I was racsist. To me being racist means that you look down on a person of another race. It means you think you are superior or better than people of a race different than yours. To me racism has hatred and malice behind it.

But sometimes I’ve seen people blasted for being racist when they aren’t. What they are is ignorant, but to me that is something different than racism.

Being a white person, I KNOW I am ignorant about many things regarding race. But that comes from a place of not-knowing, not a place of hatred or a sense of superiority. And it doesn’t come from a place of not caring or not wanting to know, it just means I haven’t learned those things yet. How can I fully understand what it means to be a person of another race? I can’t. Just as an Asian person can’t fully understand what it means to be Hispanic, a white person can fully understand what it means to be Asian. And so on.

Here is a non-race-related example. I was diagnosed with breast cancer two years ago. I had many people say insensitive things. Things like they were “jealous” of my curly hair after it was growing back from chemo. Or that I would have “perfect” boobs after I had breast reconstruction. I even had one person tell me that “eating dairy causes cancer” as I reached for a cream puff at a party. They all meant well and I knew that, so I took no offense. But I know many women with breast cancer that are angered by the insensitive comments. They call these people “idiots” and “rude”. But in my mind I know they are just ignorant to what it feels like to have breast cancer. They meant no malice - they just didn’t know what they didn’t know and how could I blame them for that? When it was appropriate I gently corrected them.

Now for a race-related example, I had no idea “afro” was a derogotory term. A black friend of mine refers to her hairstyle as a “fro” all the time and never shows offense when I use the term. She says “fro” so I say “fro” and so do all of her other friends, regardless of their race. I thought it was okay - but after reading your blog today I’m thinking that it’s not? And I wonder, if you heard me use the term would you think I was racist?

Is it possible that the white people you feel are racist aren’t admitting to being racist because they’re not? Is it possible they are just ignorant? Or is your definition of racism different than what I’ve described above?

I am here because I sincerely want to learn, I want to understand. I have questions - lots of them - but to be honest I’m afraid to ask them. I am afraid I’ll be viewed as racist when really I’m just ignorant about many things and wanting to understand. I’m honestly not sure if my ignorant-but-not-racist-white-person thoughts, views and questions are welcome here. I hope they are.

I have so much more to share and so much more to ask but my comment is long enough. Thank you for reading it. I certainly hope my comments are taken in the spirit in which they are written, which is from a place of wanting to learn and grow. Just know that there are plenty of white people out there that sincerly want to close the racial gap just as much as you do, but we don’t know how to have an honest conversation without inadverdently offending. Quite frankly it’s easier to just avoid it. But that gets us nowhere as a society and as individuals, so I am going out on a limb by bringing this up. I mean well, so please be gentle with me!

Posted 19 May 2008 at 9:19 pm ¶
Snafu Suz wrote:

Yikes! That sentence was supposed to read “a white person CAN’T fully understand what it means to be Asian.” Talk about changing the meaning of the sentence!

Posted 19 May 2008 at 9:25 pm ¶
L&N's Mom wrote:

I sit, frustrated, as a white woman married to a black man with a biracial daughter who has never met her grandparents because they are black, self-proclaimed racists, hate me and my off spring.

I sit, frustrated because yet again I read “white people” and start to wonder what I did. I struggle with people everyday about racism - about not puting people into categories, about not pre judging. I teach my children this. I battle with my coworkers for this.

I sit frustrated, because I come here seeking refuge from the daily batte, to learn and grow. It seems the longer I am here the more I start to wonder what is wrong with me… because I am white, and I am hated. I am automatically guilty for so much based on the color of my skin.

I sit, frustrated wondering if there will ever be the day where we are all not judged by the colof or or skin, but the infamous content of our character.

I sit frustrated because I have feared speaking my mind here. I thought this was a safe place to discuss and learn from each other. My apologies to anyone I may offend by speaking from the heart. But I fear the day my daughter joins the ranks of people of color and hates me too.

I sit frustrated because I am judged by the color of my skin, and I have been told that that is OK - because I am white. However I know, sadly, that we, whites, are not the only racists.

My respect to all of you.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 8:09 am ¶
L&N's Mom wrote:

“I am here because I sincerely want to learn, I want to understand. I have questions - lots of them - but to be honest I’m afraid to ask them. I am afraid I’ll be viewed as racist when really I’m just ignorant about many things and wanting to understand. I’m honestly not sure if my ignorant-but-not-racist-white-person thoughts, views and questions are welcome here. I hope they are.”

Bravo Suz, well said.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:06 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:

L&N’s Mom:

I understand and hear you on comments and posts that call out all whiter people and paint them with the same brush. I am black/white biracial and neither hate my mother’s family nor think thast they are all the same.

However, where are the blanket statements against white people IN THIS POST? I think Michelle went out of her way to qualify every reference, and none of the comments here are blasting all white people - actually, we’re not specifying any white people at all, are we?

With the only example I can see is in the initial example of Madame Butterfly. OK - her husband shoudl have said, “you can’t give all white people a pass,” I guess. But in not giving one group a pass, that still doesn’t say that all the group gets rejected as racist, just that one cannot assume that the entire group is NOT racist. Really, IMO, no group ever gets a pass. Internalized racism and racism towards other miunorities is a reality often talked about at ARP and Racialicious.

Other examples from the post:
>Asian and Asian American people still feel dehumanized, exoticized, demonized, invisible, misunderstood.

No mention of white people here. Considering the poem and the history of black/Asian relations, I never thought this was exclusively blaming white people.

>Vicki Goodyear from Mantua Township

This isn’t you and you don’t think this way, right? (even if you disagree with Obama or Wright, you wouldn’t rationalize it this way, right?) Glad we cleared that up.

>I have heard this argument before from white people, the we’re-innocent-because-Africans-enslaved-their-own-people argument

Michelle has heard this from white people (as have I, btw) - but not all white people.

>White people who believe this and spread such simplistic and incomplete inaccuracies as historical fact

Again, not you, right?

>my daughter has to go to school and try to ignore white children teasing her

Real incident and not you doing the teasing - how can you take it personally?

The same with the W.Va quotes, and Gov. Rendell’s quote (even he said “some”). Again, how can you take it personally?

Just because you are not racist, does not mean that many people are not. Just because it doesn’t pertain to you, doesn’t mean it isn’t part of the social landscape in which we all live.

Part of being an ally means acknowleging that others in your own category, even the majority of them, may consciously or unconsciously use words, actions, and policies that offend or outright target the group that you are allied with. If you don’t commit the actions, fantastic, But that does not negate the experiences of those who do experience negative actions and reactions from non-allied people.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:55 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>that call out all whiter people

Gah. all white people. Stupid keyboard.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:55 am ¶
Janine deManda wrote:

Like Michelle and so many others, I’m exhausted. I’m also something of a hardliner when it comes to defining racism or any governing system of oppression.

Snafu Suz and L&N’s Mom, here’s my shorthand version. Racism permeates white supremacist culture just as sexism permeates patriarchal culture. If you are white of any sex, you have been taught in myriad ways all your life to have an inherently racist worldview. If you are a man of any race, you have been taught in myriad ways all your life to have an inherently sexist worldview. If you are non-white of any sex, you have been taught in myriad ways all of your life to internalize an inherently racist worldview that devalues you. If you are a woman of any race, you have been taught in myriad ways all of your life to internalize an inherently sexist worldview that devalues you. Regardless of who you are, if you are obedient to those teachings, you will be rewarded for your obedience, but you will also be poisoned by the inherent toxicity of any and all systems of oppression.

My analogy for this is chemical dependency. Your drug of choice will “reward” you in whatever ways it’s equipped to while also poisoning you, maybe to death. Having descended from and grown up around addicts, I know it’s possible to stop the destructive feedback loop, but it takes work, every fuckin’ day, all the gotdamn time WORK.

From where I sit, that work involves more effort on the part of white people than asking non-white people to please explain racism to them, but only if we promise not to use that dirty word to refer to them because they are good white people whose sincerity and earnestness we should be grateful for and bend over backward to facilitate. Not only that, it involves a helluva lot more than complaining about how unfair it is that white people get held accountable in any way for the continued existence of white supremacist culture and the racism it is built on.

Some of that helluva lot more would include coming to anti-racist parent and reading up and asking intelligent questions, but it would also include going to the damn library and reading up and letting your questions lead you to more books which will lead you to more questions - and even after that leads to a sense of grounded understanding of race and systems of oppression, you’ll need to keep reading and analyzing and questioning. I do all of that every day as if my life depended on it ‘cuz I know my sanity certainly does.

I’m a mixed blood, and my daughter’s father is black. Based on my own experience of mixed identity formation and race in america, I think it very likely my daughter will identify as monoracially black at some point and reject both my mixed identity and her own. This foreknowledge has not resulted in me bemoaning my fate as the inevitably-hated mother of my child when she, alas, chooses a raced identity unlike my own. Instead, it has motivated me to continue doing the work I have been doing for myself for decades and began doing for her before she was born - interrogating culture and my own assumptions, reading, theorizing, conversing, analyzing, participating in the struggle. and yeah, sometimes, hell, almost all of the time, I’m fucking exhausted, but the struggle goes on, so I do, too. And that’s what I come to anti-racist parent for - a place of respite, understanding, and insight among fellow fighters, but I encounter the “ignorant” and “uninformed” here, too. No space is safe, but we can continue to work whereever we are.

Here’s hoping there are more people willing to walk that talk every day.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 1:39 pm ¶
irshlas wrote:

“If you don’t commit the actions, fantastic, But that does not negate the experiences of those who do experience negative actions and reactions from non-allied people. “

I agree whole-heatedly, but it’s a two-way street. I don’t want to speak for others, but I too admit that I felt a personal “all white people” tone to the post. Not intended? Fantastic. But it’s how I perceived it. It does make me feel like I can’t do anything right with regard to race / ethnic relations simply because I’m white. That’s my problem, I admit that, but it’s always nice to be open and honest about how one feels.

I would like to offer up another view of the “being tired of always being angry” perspective. I’m a white woman who was raised and continues to live in the south. I am painfully aware of the horrific legacy that much of the south has in terms of race relations. (Sadly, my home state is one of the worst offenders. We still carry the Confederate battle flag as part of our state flag and Confederate Memorial Day is a state holiday!) I would offer that my weariness comes from fighting both sides of the equation. I can be in a room full of whites who assume I find their insensitive and racist remarks funny. When I protest or call them out, I’m automatically alienated. I’ve “ruined” office gatherings, birthday parties, and holiday celebrations due to my “liberal” comments. Members of my own family spend countless gatherings walking on egg shells afraid they will “get me started” when a topic of discussion rubs me the wrong way.

On the other side of the equation, is the assumption by non-whites around me that I’m “just like the rest of ‘em.” I make an effort to seek out People of Color when I’m in a new social situation. I make eye contact and smile when in public. I make a point to strike up friendly conversations when possible and to acknowledge situations where I believe I have offended. Regardless, I am constantly given the weird stares, the annoyed glances, the cold shoulders. I understand where they come from, but it doesn’t make them any less tiring.

I think maybe what some of the other posters here may have been experiencing was a “damned-if-you-do; damned-if-you-don’t” feeling. It is definitely true that as a white woman, I have the luxury of forgetting about race most of the time, to be “race free.” However, when I do, it’s likely to toss me in with a group of people I’d rather not be associated with (ie. the racists, the bigots) I’m not asking for a blue ribbon for taking my head out of the sand. Just identifying the feelings I sometimes have when I try.

I can go to the library and read all the books I want to. I can ask questions until the cows come home. If all I get is silence or told that I “don’t get it and never will” or am lambasted every single time I try to come to the table of discussion, then it becomes harder and harder to even bother. Is it worth it? Sure. No, POC don’t owe me a damn thing. That’s fine. What I’m asking, however, is the chance to be part of the discussion. I AM “reading and analyzing and asking questions.” I don’t expect anyone to “be grateful for or bend over backwards” to me. I also don’t expect that one or two people posting at one or two websites get to define what it means to be a POC. I try to remember that, too. I take it all in and get what I can from each new perspective. It doesn’t negate mine or make my questions or perspective any less valid. I can unpack all the backpacks I want to, but if I’m sitting in a room all by myself, I didn’t accomplish much, did I?

Sorry for the long comment. I’ll continue to read and learn!

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:07 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>On the other side of the equation, is the assumption by non-whites around me that I’m “just like the rest of ‘em.” I make an effort to seek out People of Color when I’m in a new social situation. I make eye contact and smile when in public. I make a point to strike up friendly conversations when possible and to acknowledge situations where I believe I have offended. Regardless, I am constantly given the weird stares, the annoyed glances, the cold shoulders. I understand where they come from, but it doesn’t make them any less tiring.

ishlas: I’ll let Michelle comment on what she intended by the post. But may I suggest that you may NOT understand where ethnic minorities are coming from.

When I read “I make an effort to seek out People of Color when I’m in a new social situation,” I flinched. And here’s why: some well meaning people (not saying you), usually majority but sometimes another minority, come across to people of a minority group as overly solicitous or well-meaningly stereotypical. It’s like a straight person coming up deliberately to an openly gay person and immediately saying, “Oh I love gay people!” and talking about a Will And Grace episode.

Basic reaction? Gawd, spare us.

Noone wants to be seen as a stand in for a group, and noone wants to be obsequiously courted. Noone wants to be sought after as a trophy or token, even by well-meaning people.

And if it happens to you 9 times out of 10, you’re not going to be receptive when that 10% of legitimate “I see you as a person and will not overreact to what your category appears to be” interaction happens. Because many are conditioned by that other 90%.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 3:51 pm ¶
turtlebella wrote:

Thanks, Janine. Well said.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 5:41 pm ¶
h sofia wrote:

Irshlas - I can understand what you’re saying (with one exception being the comment that ” I too admit that I felt a personal “all white people” tone to the post” - I did not get that all, but in fact felt Michelle was striving very hard NOT to do that; it’s interesting that we have different reactions to that).

All I can say to the rest of your comment is that … ignorance sure is bliss. I’ve felt many of the things you’ve said - though never from the perspective of a white anti racist woman. There are a lot of people of color who don’t have the intellectual analysis of racism, and who don’t interact with white anti-racist folks, and I’ve worried sometimes about my white anti racist friends and how they might be treated or perceived by individuals of color who paint everyone who is not [fill in the blank] with one brush. Racial prejudice is something that flows in all directions.

So we’ve got to stick together, and not be self righteous to one another, and listen to each other, and help each other, realizing that this is hard work, and we all need mini breaks sometimes (as Michelle alluded to). And then, we need to juggle all of this “race stuff” along with all the other “stuffs” of our lives - the gender stuff, the sexuality stuff, the religious stuff, the economics stuff, the political stuff, etc. There’s so much, so we should be loving toward one another, even when we are challenging each other.

At the end of the day, I think what I want from my anti racist allies is to know that they’ll care about this race stuff no matter what - whether they get kudos or not, whether they get rejected or not, whether anyone gives a damn or not. Of course this doesn’t excuse any of us from caring for one another, but it makes it easier to do that in trust when the commitment to anti racism is unconditional.

Posted 20 May 2008 at 9:40 pm ¶
deesha wrote:

Janine’s comment set off a tangent in my head, reminding me of something I read recently:

“…The social movements of the 1960’s opposed psychiatry’s focus on inner conflict and emphasized the social sources of sickness instead. Dr. Alvin Poussaint recalls the 1969 convention of the American Psychiatric Association (APA).

“’After multiple racist killings during the civil rights movement, a group of black psychiatrists sought to have murderous bigotry based on race classified as a mental disorder. The APA’s officials rejected that recommendation, arguing that since so many Americans are racist, racism in this country is normative.’”…

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/mental-illness-or-social-sickness/

Posted 20 May 2008 at 10:39 pm ¶
chicagomama wrote:

I think what is often missing in the conversation about how white people feel when people of color point out the structural racism that we all deal with on a day to day basis is the issue of agency.

Another poster has already brought up the power dynamic inherent in race relations in a white dominant culture, but I think we all as individuals need to think about our ideas of cultural and individual agency.

I am a white woman who is constantly trying to become more anti-racist. And as I have worked on this more, I am often embarrassed by my actions and statements in the past. I am really grateful to my friends who listened to me more outrageous stuff and still love me.

I too often wanted to be validated as a good, non racist person in conversations where my role should have been to listen. If I wanted to know how someone else feels, if I wanted to learn about their experiences and how those experiences differed from mine - I needed to be able to shut my own mouth and listen respectfully. I needed to stop trying to get my point across, and to actually acknowledge that as a member of the dominant race in my society - any person of color who I was interacting with has a pretty darned good idea of my position. They have to navigate *my* position every single day in order to function in our society.

When I stopped trying to show that I was somehow different from all those ‘other’ white people, when I finally was able to just say - “I’m not sure I understand your point about ‘x’, could you clarify it further?” without trying to negate how the point could really ever have anything to do with me - that’s when I started to learn.

In this process, I slowly realized how much agency white privilege conveyed to me. I stopped hearing “all white people”, stopped hearing “SHUT UP WHITE PERSON” because I realized that none of the people I was reading, listening to and interacting with had the power to take away my white privilege. That only I could consciously choose to do my best to set it aside and not try to defend it. And to hear the anger and pain and betrayal that others have felt. Without trying to minimize it or tell them how their experiences were ‘good for them’ or that ‘they didn’t understand’.

As I have worked through some of this stuff ( a work in progress as I am sure is obvious) it is amazing that fewer and fewer of my conversations regarding this are with people of color (as a percentage). I am having more of these conversations with white men and women. And the level of resistance is huge. I recently had a several day long conversation with an old friend about the failures within feminism towards poor women, women of color, and lesbians and other minorities. Back and forth we spoke to one another and she continually said that she felt un-validated by the women of color she tried to speak with about feminism. And I asked her (in all seriousness) why she felt she needed to be validated by the women of color she spoke with before she could acknowledge the legitimate complaints they were bringing to the discussion.

I don’t need to be validated. I believe that’s just another way to protect your own privilege (consciously or not). By acknowledging my own agency, my own privilege - I also needed to acknowledge that asking someone to validate my thoughts or feelings in these conversations was really asking them to reaffirm my white privilege at the onset of the discussion - in effect shutting down the idea that I would actually have to change at all.

If I want to be more anti-racist - I have to be willing to just listen and accept that I don’t get some stuff. That I may never get some stuff. To horribly misquote some famous philosopher - to know that I *don’t* know.

And the next step for me was to say that while it may not be my experience - I need to use my privilege to do my best to make sure those experiences are heard, validated and shared. Without trying to negate some part that makes me feel defensive. I need to ask permission to share those things, and validate them not to the person of color who shared it (heck , they know it is true) but to the other white people who I interact with. That is where I should be using my white privilege.

To realize that I have to make the stand when a roomful of white people make the racist joke, or when a friend tries to argue that gender oppression is worse than racism or who tries to say that they are a good person who doesn’t have anything to do with those ‘few bad apples’.

I am trying to realize that most (if not all) people of color don’t need me to fight their battles or to figure out how to make their lives better. Talk about condescending. But rather, that I need to open my eyes to where white privilege can be challenged among other white people. Racism doesn’t just affect people of color. It isn’t a people of color problem. It is a all people problem - and I need to clean up my own backyard instead of requesting a pat on the head for asking someone else to go pick me up a set of garden tools, and other stuff needed for me to start cleaning. Asking for someone else to do my heavy lifting doesn’t get me a pat on the back. It should get me a kick in the pants.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 12:14 am ¶
gm wrote:

Excellent article Michelle. I feel your pain. But, I don’t understand how the post got so turned around that now it’s all about helping “good intentioned white people” feel better about themselves. What I took away from your piece is how for two hours you just wanted to relax and not see anything racist about what you were watching. We all feel that way and we all do it. If we didn’t then we would all be crazy right now. Sometimes, it’s simply looking at each situation in the context in which it comes up. A lot of great literature, movies and plays have racist and sexist ideas but we still enjoy the plots because it speaks to what we encounter in our daily lives. We shouldn’t bemoan ourselves for enjoying an artist’s work. We are fortunate when we recognize the not so, subtle messages of race, class and sexism and we can’t assume others don’t see these messages. A good sign of great entertainment is the audience discussing the message and meaning later.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 7:57 am ¶
L&N's Mom wrote:

My intent was only to allow people to know how I feel, and maybe to help me understand these feelings. Maybe there is more going on in my head right now than just Michelle’s post, but I am struggling, I am trying to learn, and for those willing to help me and others I thank you - for those who I offended I am sorry.

I won’t pick apart Michelle’s post line by line and point out what stung me - it was just a feeling I get as I read more and more. Not just her post, but over the year or so I have been reading.

I was recently told to do more reading on white priveledge. I feel insulted by that because I have, because I am here, and elsewhere, trying to understand more, learn more, and hopefully close the gap even if it’s just a fraction of a percentage. I feel as though I put myself out there by being honest and vulnerable, and it stings some more.

It is true however that the longer I am here the more I feel on the outside. I see Irshlas above being honest as well, and that her seeking out POC is her attempt, her being here, as I am is our attempt to learn and grow. If she, we, are going about this the wrong way - I would LVOE positive feedback, I would love suggestions and support. I know so much gets lost in translation on this world we call the internet, but I’ve come for support. So I ask - did I come to the wrong place, or am I just suffering from the raw emotion my family experiences have left me?

I will agree whole hearted with Michelle’s post on one thing - this is exhausting.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 8:44 am ¶
atlasien wrote:

I read the original post and thought “I agree totally with Michelle, so I really don’t have much to say or add.” Since then, the comment discussion has gotten very interesting!

I think a lot of commenters have (very gently) said “get over it” to concerns about being viewed as a racist. I’ll add my thoughts on that.

I’ve been called a racist numerous times. Usually it’s in the context of “you’re racist for talking about race!” and “minorities are the REAL racists!” It doesn’t bother me at all. Why not? I know it’s not the same thing as a white person being called a racist. But why doesn’t it bother me, while similar accusations tend to wound the white person?

As someone who’s been socialized as a minority, I know, on a very deep level, that people have preconceived notions about me based on my race. Sometimes these are negative or positive, but they’re always there. The fact that I’m Asian means something. It precedes me. The best I can hope for is that the preconceived notion is relatively neutral. I’m used to walking into a group and not being included. I have to prove my inclusion by demonstrating certain tokens. This could be a group of white people, black people, or even other Asian people.

The equivalent white person is just not used to this way of thinking. When they walk into a group that doesn’t automatically include them, they don’t expect to be distrusted. When they hear about racism, they’re thrown into that other way of thinking… suddenly they’re racialized and feel like they’re forced to prove something. (this attitude is not something that’s unique to whiteness. I think it’s also true for non-white majority groups in other countries,)

This creates misunderstandings because people who are not white don’t see what’s so weird and hard about being racialized and forced to prove something.

Also, one thing I have really thought about a lot and written about a lot is the guilt/resentment dynamic in white people. I believe that white people who have really thought through this stuff, or just have a naturally pragmatic attitude, can transcend this dynamic.

Otherwise, they tend to oscillate between the two poles of guilt and resentment. They feel guilty, then they feel resentful about being made to feel guilty, when they are actually the ones that are making themselves feel guilty. To get out of the dynamic, they have to depersonalize racism. “Racism is a system I’m embedded in, but it doesn’t have to define my identity.”

Here are two potential reactions to a simple statement: “white people are so racist.”

1) “they’re talking about me. I’m white! I’m not racist! They hate me. I feel terrible. ”

2) “Yes, a lot of white people are racist/benefit from racism as a system, but I wonder if that statement is useful in this particular context.”

Number two, the depersonalized one, is a lot healthier.

Also, I think a lot more generalization about white people and whiteness should be acceptable, in a way that similar generalization about other groups would not be acceptable. This is because whiteness is not the only identity a white person has. A white person has their ethnic identity, their regional identity, cultural… they have a lot of choices in defining themselves. A minority is forced to use one primary (racial) identity that removes a lot of potential choice. If a white person is critical (in the “thoughtful” critical sense) towards their own whiteness, and refuses to use it as a source of pride, they still have many other sources of identity to be proud and confident in themselves.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 9:51 am ¶
justamom wrote:

I am thankful to be able to read here. I am grateful for those who share and write the things that I have to really think about and work to understand what it means for me personally - what it means for how I live my life. I am hesitant to post because I feel like I don’t have the right to own my feelings about this because I am white: the white woman who was in a long-term interracial relationship many years ago, the white mom of a 27 yo biracial daughter who identifies as Black and is married to an African American man, the white grandma of Black children, the white adoptive mom of three more Black daughters. I have been living with and changing because of racism for years and though I don’t FEEL completely white, I am still white. But I am an angry, very angry, and frustrated white mom first and then person in general ( because of the way the world - the school system - treats my kids and my powerlessness to change it). I know I will always be on the outside of my family’s experience and I have focused on trying to change what I can change. I have white privilege whether I want it or not, so how do I make it work in ways that I want it to for my family….. I am so angry with other white people who are so defensive that they can’t HEAR. I am tired of “tiptoeing” around with my words so that I do not offend a white person who is so positive they have never contribute to our racist system. I am tired of being told I have a “chip on my shoulder.” Or that I am the defensive one. It seems hopeless because if we cannot listen without throwing up defenses - just open ourselves to really hearing the message - our society is never going to change.

Thank you to those of you who keep putting the words out here - for being in the room and talking.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 10:11 am ¶
heartsandflowers wrote:

I think chicagomama laid it out well and snafu and l&n should use her comment as a model for a course of action to take.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 10:32 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:

L&N’s Mom Said:

>Not just her post, but over the year or so I have been reading.
> I feel as though I put myself out there by being honest and vulnerable, and it stings some more.
> So I ask - did I come to the wrong place, or am I just suffering from the raw emotion my family experiences have left me?

L&N’s Mom, I do no think you are at the wrong place, and I don’t think any regulars around here think that either. PLEASE read atlasien’s, chicagomama’s, h sophia’s and justamom’s entries (I suspect your comments were all in moderation together), and see if their comments resonate with you in any way. Because I think there may be elements in their posts that you can take away with you. God knows they just clarified a bunch for me.

The intent of my comment to you was not to cause pain, and I have yet to see the “hate” you mentioned in your first post. It’s actually against the moderation criteria to spread hate towards any group, so thinking and reading that is bound to get hackles up.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 11:11 am ¶
deesha wrote:

**If she, we, are going about this the wrong way - I would LVOE positive feedback, I would love suggestions and support. I know so much gets lost in translation on this world we call the internet, but I’ve come for support. So I ask - did I come to the wrong place, or am I just suffering from the raw emotion my family experiences have left me?**

L&N, I would venture a guess that you are raw, and I base that mostly on the fact that you expressed fear that your own child would grow up to hate you. That’s about waaaay more than a discussion happening here or anywhere else.

I appreciate ChicagoMama’s post, and have wondered before why more white parents don’t blog here about their experiences and perspectives. It seems to be mostly, almost exclusively, in the comments that the “I’m white, and I feel this way about racism/anti-racism, and I’m bother by x…” perspective is heard–too often in the same breath that’s minimizing what the non-white blogger is saying, or, in the case of this blog, “I’m tired too!” which is its own form of minimizing.

No disrespect at all to ChicagoMama. I think what she wrote could be a blog! I’m just saying to those “white people” who feel all beat up here that it’s not just what you’re saying, it’s the context.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 11:29 am ¶
L&N's Mom wrote:

atlasien: Your “healthier response” was helpful and appreciated.

Justamom: Thankyou for speaking up. My duaghter just turned one and I know I’m in for a long haul - I am trying to build an arsenal of knowledge to be a better Mom. Even if I may be a bit emotional these last few days - I’m trying to be open minded.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 11:39 am ¶
Janine deManda wrote:

Thanks everyone posting on this thread for an engaging discussion with special thanks to chicagomama and justamom for breaking it down.

Also, deesha, that link is an intense and thought-provoking read, and I definitely see the connection. Thanks for sharing that.

And you’re welcome, turtlebella - thanks for the thanks.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 12:01 pm ¶
Yoli wrote:

I just come from reading the yahoo APC where they are discussing Tiki-Tiki-Tembo. Some mothers there have bought it for their kids and fully recommend the books. They have read it and see nothing racist in it. Amazing.

No matter how tired you are people. Speak up.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 12:25 pm ¶
Evan Carden wrote:

Lyonside asks: “However, where are the blanket statements against white people IN THIS POST? ”

From the post: “I have heard this argument before from white people, the we’re-innocent-because-Africans-enslaved-their-own-people argument. ”

Not my argument, though I would point out that slavery hardly was, or is a solely white institution.

My argument is that I’m innocent because I haven’t enslaved anyone. I have, almost certainly, benefitted from the fact that I’m a middle class white male, in a society that. I say ‘almost certainly’ because no one has actually said anything along the lines of: ‘we were going to admit/hire/reward that guy, but you’re white, so we’ll give it to you,’ (which raises some questions about how the people who whine about the effect of affirmitive action know what effect it has had on them personally).

A second example: “What struck me right away, gut reaction-level, was just how defensive this woman was and how she, presumably as a white woman, needed to project her racist guilt somewhere else”

Someone might point out that her assumption is that this is a white woman, but as far as I can tell, there’s no evidence of that. Her statement is racist, therefore she is white? Not an argument I really like.

I could continue, but: “There are so many revealing ignorant and racist assumptions in this woman’s comment that I don’t know where to begin deconstructing it without turning this post into a dissertation-like, psychological and sociological analysis. ”

Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

Posted 21 May 2008 at 7:50 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

Evan: Great use of selective reading. As I said in my first COMMENT:

>”I have heard this argument before from white people”

This means that Michelle HAS ACTUALLY HEARD THIS from people who happen to be white. I have heard sexist things from men ALL MY LIFE. Do I think that all men are sexist? Nope. But saying that I’ve heard XYZ comment from men is not an inaccurate statement.

>Someone might point out that her assumption is that this is a white woman, but as far as I can tell, there’s no evidence of that. Her statement is racist, therefore she is white?

Um, no, the post references a newspaper response, so yes, unless there was a picture attached, it’s hard to say - but it is LIKELY that the speaker is white, as this is an argument that has been said by many WHITE PEOPLE before(referenced above). Michelle SAID that she was presuming, but she also backed it up with previous experience.

>Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

Sounds more like you ran out of examples.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 8:27 am ¶
L&N's Mom wrote:

I don’t believe Evan was selecting, only answering your question. Something I didn’t do because I thought this would happen, a long argument about what the writer’s intent was - and none of us can know - it is our interputation of what we read.

I could argue: “she, presumably as a white woman”, “as a contemporary white person”, “maligned white ancestors”, “gave themselves to us as gifts”, is 4 examples in her commentary about “the woman” which assumes that this woman is white. So she seems pretty certain - based on what? A written comment? Which is why I say so much is lost in the written word, and so much is gained in person, and with conversation.

I’ve heard some of “the woman’s” exact comments from asians, hispanics and blacks, and yes - whites, in person. So from my ears it’s not worth 4 references assuming this woman’s race.

I learned a long time ago that people “hear” through filters. These filters are based on life experience. So no two people can have the same exact interputation of someone elses comments. Where some people may read these types of posts and hear that the author is talking about racism in general, others may see it as the author is generalizing about white racism. It’s all in your perspective, and how you hear through that filter.

I brought up the subject because through my filter I hear it differently. It doesn’t make me right, or wrong - but I think it’s worthy of a conversation so we can learn from each other isn’t it? Hopefully through positive conversation I can adjust my filter, and who knows, maybe we all can make some adjustments.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 11:19 am ¶
Michelle wrote:

OK, so I’m the writer of this post. If any of you have ever read any of my other posts, you may know that I usually don’t respond to comments–most of the time I don’t even read the comments. I truly believe sometimes that I should just let what I write go and allow the conversations that emerge happen organically. But I couldn’t help but note a couple of things here.

1) I did not use blanket statements to refer to white people when I discussed my own observations and feelings. In fact, I made sure that my statements about white people had qualifiers. So why did some white people read the post like I lumped white people together and maybe also felt like they were being attacked? I can’t answer that question–that’s something deep within themselves they need to figure out. And honestly, that feeling of discomfort and not being invisible when it comes to racial dialogue might be a good thing for many white people to experience. All I can say is 2 things, a) if you want to vent, that’s fine, but if your desire is to be validated, then please don’t invalidate my observations and feelings to get it, and b) if what I wrote doesn’t apply to you, then I wasn’t talking about you. Please see chicagomama’s comment, #18 (thank you for that).

2) The question of whether ignorance = racism is something that I think would need to be explored in another full post. I think it’s a thought-provoking point and should be given full consideration, not just a quick response in the comments. I would love to see how you guys talk about this, if you choose to.

3) Please don’t defend Vicki Goodyear. Please don’t try to say we shouldn’t assume she’s white, etc, etc. Come on. And please, please do not engage in discussions which discredit the brutality of AMERICAN SLAVERY–specifically the enslavement of people of African descent by people of European descent from the beginning of the 1600’s when the first slaves were brought to the U.S. colonies to the mid-1800’s. That’s 250+ years that the majority of white people in both the northern and southern U.S. traded black people, brutalized black people, raped black women and children, murdered black people, terrorized black people, disenfranchised black people, allowed black people to remain enslaved–this includes the legacy of AMERICAN SLAVERY that continued through the terrorizing of black people during Reconstruction, the establishment of Jim Crow, the rise of the KKK, etc, etc, etc that went on for another 100 years culminating in the Civil Rights Movement.

I am speaking of AMERICAN SLAVERY–an atrocity that occurred in a country whose representatives proclaimed freedom from England at the same time they DELIBERATELY wrote black people’s freedom out of the final draft of the Declaration of Independence, identified black people as 3/5 of a human, passed and upheld laws which dehumanized black people in every way possible–where slavery established and privileged white-only ideology and institutions. I can never do justice in this comment to the immense ramifications that slavery had not only on black people in the U.S. but also on American politics and culture as a whole–that STILL impacts us today despite desegregation, Civil Rights, Affirmative Action, etc.

Please do not insult us by trying to excuse AMERICAN SLAVERY by saying that slavery has always existed among other people at other times–Thomas Jefferson in NOTES ON VIRGINIA tried to use Roman slavery as an example of why he believed black people were inferior to white people–these cannot be said to be the same b/c they were not. Yes, slavery has been around for a long, long time and practiced in many cultures–and even modern-day slavery is a topic that I’ve spoken about a great deal and traveled around the country to raise awareness of. But do not excuse the profound immorality of AMERICAN SLAVERY by saying white people weren’t the first to do it, or the only ones doing it, or whatever. I swear if I see another comment like that, you might actually be able to hear me scream through this blog.

To everyone who said they were also exhausted–thanks, I’m glad to know I’m not the only one.

gm–thanks, you got what I was trying to say. I don’t know how things got turned around either.

Stephanie–Thanks for your comments. I will tell my daughter what you said.

Jae Ran–2Tongues, woohoo! I had actually thought to quote that line too–thanks for adding it here. It looks like the finish line is long way off. . .

Posted 22 May 2008 at 1:24 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>I don’t believe Evan was selecting

S/he was selecting, because s/he didn’t read what I said AFTER that question, s/he just piled on.

>I could argue: “she, presumably as a white woman”, “as a contemporary white person”, “maligned white ancestors”, “gave themselves to us as gifts”, is 4 examples in her commentary about “the woman” which assumes that this woman is white.

So on behalf of one woman in Jersey, you declare that Michelle is painting ALL WHITE WOMEN or all white people the same way? She said presumedly, she said THIS woman. Not all women. I ask again, if you are not this person, bully for you. How does that negate Michelle’s experiences? Right, it doesn’t.

Now take into consideration a long, long history of minorities and expecially minority women having their concerns trivialized with “But my ancestors suffered too!” statements.

See, there’s where I get frustrated with where this conversation is going. As I said previously, I’d leave it to Michelle to explain her exact rationale for ONE reference.

>I’ve heard some of “the woman’s” exact comments from asians, hispanics and blacks, and yes - whites, in person

But the fact that she’s mentioning that she’s heard it before, and it has come from white people in her experience, is still legitimate (it’s her experience - yours do not negate hers).

>I learned a long time ago that people “hear” through filters. These filters are based on life experience. So no two people can have the same exact interputation of someone elses comments.

True. Here’s my filter: knowing the population of Mantua, NJ, and the wording of the post (”they” instead of “our”, the fact that as of the 2000 census, Mantua Twp was 95.5% white), I would also feel fairly confident that the person quoted in the article is possibly white, almost certainly non-black. That’s my interpretation. Other interpretations are of course possible (self-hating people of African descent being one of them).

Here’s a question - what do you think about the REST of Michelle’s post? Can we stop picking apart the nuances of one part of it, since we agree that it’s open to interpretation without authorial imput? Or can you not get beyond the idea that white people may have been discussed maybe too broadly?

Posted 22 May 2008 at 1:31 pm ¶
Phillipe wrote:

Hello everyone, I’m new to this blog and enjoyed reading the post and the discussion. What concerns me about the discussion of how whites feel about being called racist is that the focus on that issue implies that racism is primarily about people’s emotions. I don’t wish anyone to feel badly but when I know that there are people in this society whose whole quality of life is influenced by their race in a way that privileges whites (regardless of whether they are racist or not) at the expense of everyone else I find it difficult to spend lots of time trying to make anyone feel better about that situation. I’d rather spend my time changing these structures of privilege and power. Whether individual whites are racist or not is important but is ultimately not the point. Another thing is that “hate” is a strong word, which like love, is much abused these days. That people of color have strong feelings about their experiences does not mean that they hate anyone. In my life I don’t know a single person of color where it would be accurate to say that they hate white people. If anything in my experience, people of color demonstrate remarkable restraint and patience in spite of the daily pressures we have to face relative to racism. I’m not sure who all these “white-hating” people are who are being eluded to in some of these comments. I haven’t met them.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 2:28 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:

Phillipe wrote:
” I’d rather spend my time changing these structures of privilege and power.” Yes, but how can you do that without the people in power (whites) UNDERSTANDING how racism works; how white people contribute to systemic and institutional racism whether they believe themselves to be racist or not. We are too busy saying we aren’t a part of IT to understand what IT is and how we ARE a part of it.

Maybe we (white people) have to de-personalize the message a little to understand it. Maybe we have to back off and not think it is all about US. When I read an article like Michelle’s (thank you, Michelle) I don’t read it the first time thinking about myself and asking whether or not I am racist or if it is about me. I read it to understand more about the author and her experience. The author is my focus and not myself. I don’t try to validate her experience (not my place) or judge it or make it my own. I just want to understand as much as I can about her experience and thoughts. Then I read it again and ask myself what I can learn. Does it mean I need to change anything about me? And how can I use what I have learned to effect change outside of me.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 3:46 pm ¶
L&N's Mom wrote:

Lyonside,

I wasn’t meaning to pick apart any of Michelle’s post - from the very beginning. I do, in fact, agree with most of it - which may surprise some people. Again - it’s hard for me, where I can only speak for me, to constantly hear references to whites being racist. Please don’t get me wrong here - I KNOW most of it festers in the homes of whites who pass it down generation to generation. And it pisses me off quite frankly. (I’m not sure who made some reference to American Slavery other than “that woman” but I certainly didn’t and if I came off that way - I sincerely apologise)

My reaction was just that, my reaction. Michelles response was right - it is hard to feel this way and maybe I can learn from it. (forgive me for not quoting her).

I did mention some of this is my own crap too - My filter: well crap I just wrote it all out and then realised no one here gives a crap about my filter.

And Phillipe - I have met them. Which is one of, but not the most important reasons why I came here to try and better understand why that is so.

Snafu Suz said:
“I am here because I sincerely want to learn, I want to understand. I have questions - lots of them - but to be honest I’m afraid to ask them. I am afraid I’ll be viewed as racist when really I’m just ignorant about many things and wanting to understand.”

I wonder how she feels after reading all of this.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 4:19 pm ¶
Evan Carden wrote:

Michelle: “Please don’t try to say we shouldn’t assume she’s [the commenter’s] white, etc, etc. Come on.”

I said that there was no evidence that she’s white. Your experience is that people who make the argument she’s making are white.

My experience, because I grew up in a blindingly white environment, is that the people who make the arguments you’re making are mostly white, should I therefore assume you’re white?

Oh, and while I’m on the subject, I didn’t try to say anything, I did say it. Though I hid behind the “Someone might point” construction, that was because I don’t know you well enough to accuse you of racism, so I was merely saying that the implication of that statement, was to me, racist. The rest of that was just me giving my opinion. And, one might point out (to hide again) that your absolute unwillingness to consider that she might not be white, is a bit disturbing.

Moving on and away, pointing out that slavery predates American slavery, or as you put it, AMERICAN SLAVERY, wasn’t intended to denigrate, or minimize American slavery. There was a difference between old world style (mostly debt-slavery and war prisoner slavery) and new world slavery (genetic). I certainly never said that it was justified, so I’ll thank you not to paint me as a slavery apologist. Slavery was, is and will be a sin, an unforgivable one; and at least in this country, a crime. I note in your little history of Black America, you somehow missed the civil war, which established that…

But that’s all irrelevant to my basic point. You write:

“I have heard this argument before from white people, the we’re-innocent-because-Africans-enslaved-their-own-people argument. ”

Now, maybe you assumed that it would be read as she’s defensive about an accusation that hasn’t been made, namely that she’s responsible for the actions of her ancestors (as insane an idea as holding the child of rape guilty for the rape, historically and presently done, God help us), but the way it read, at least to me, was an accusation: “You are white, slaveholders were white and maybe your ancestors were slaveholders, therefore you are guilty until proven innocent.” Maybe it’s because everyone who’s actually guilty of slave-holding/capturing/trading/selling is dead (well, at least of the new world form, the old world form is alive and well, horrifyingly).

Maybe that reveals more about me as a reader, than you as a writer; maybe it was a bit too subtle for my eyes; maybe…maybe…maybe, but maybe not, just maybe, your writing reveals something about you, just as my reading reveals something about me. Once again, I leave you with your own words:

“I can’t answer that question–that’s something deep within themselves they need to figure out.”

Oh, and Lyonside, I make no statement about the gender of the commenter. I don’t know if she’s white, black, brown, or orange and neither do you. The odds are she’s white, especially, as you note, due to her location, but that’s just the odds, not reality. The point I’m trying to make is neither of you offers me any proof that she’s white, you’re both merely assuming that she is, because she writes something that is racist.

Now, just in the interest of pissing everyone off, Snafu Suz writes: “To me being racist means that you look down on a person of another race.” Which is to my mind incomplete, it needs another clause: “because of their race.” Looking down on someone because they’re stupid/wrong/evil/criminal/whatever is fine, regardless of their race. Looking down on someone because they’re black/brown/white/yellow/whatever is racist.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 5:19 pm ¶
Evan Carden wrote:

Two typos there: I should have said race not gender when talking about the commenter; though the gender isn’t explicit either…

Also, I certainly meant to denigrate American Slavery, it was a horrifying institution that deserved to be and was destroyed. I meant that I didn’t intend to suggest that American Slavery was anything other than horrifying and wrong. Pointing out that something has been done in the past is not an argument for it’s use in the future, or an argument for it’s acceptability in the present or past.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 5:54 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>I wasn’t meaning to pick apart any of Michelle’s post - from the very beginning
>I do, in fact, agree with most of it - which may surprise some people.

I’m not surprised by this. But the idea that you were mostly OK with the post got lost because all I read from your initial post was how offended YOU were. By making this about you, you essentially minimized Michelle’s experiences and emotions. All you seemed to agree with was that “this is hard,” and you seemed about to walk away from the site (or at least ask if you should). See, that’s way to close to “I’m going to take my ball and go home.” Which I’m sure you’ll agree is a great feather-ruffler.

Michelle defended and explained her post. It’s up to you if you or others want to continue to take it personally.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 8:10 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>though the gender isn’t explicit either…

Really? Vicki Goodyear: Vicki, diminutive of Victoria. Vick would be a diminutive of Victor.I have never met a male Vicki, have you?

>The point I’m trying to make is neither of you offers me any proof that she’s white, you’re both merely assuming that she is

Funny, that’s the opposite of what I wrote, which was “LIKELY.” followed in a later comment by, “knowing the population of Mantua, NJ, and the wording of the post (”they” instead of “our”, the fact that as of the 2000 census, Mantua Twp was 95.5% white), I would also feel fairly confident that the person quoted in the article is possibly white, almost certainly non-black. That’s my interpretation. Other interpretations are of course possible (self-hating people of African descent being one of them).”

Posted 22 May 2008 at 8:18 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

Sorry, not “opposite of,” just contrary to. Since we’re getting into semantics and picking apart individual word choices and all. *sigh*

Posted 22 May 2008 at 8:20 pm ¶
temple wrote:

So Michelle, while you are concerned for the wellbeing & self-esteem of your children when they are confronted by racists you should stop to verify all encounters with those you assume to be of a certain ‘race’–because your child’s positive sense of self is not nearly as urgent as verifying if a person who made a racist/apologist statement about slavery is definitely white. No, the ACTUAL experiences of your family are trivial (and a lie, because unlike the stereotypes of people of color, your experiences have not been researched & studied in a controlled environment & then observed by those in authority with the power to approve or reject) compared to your responsibility to make sure that NO white people feel any anxiety as a result of YOUR frustration, fear & feelings of helplessness (due to the ACTUAL experiences of you & your family members) in trying to raise your children of color in a society where there are still SOME people who actively participate in racial supremacy (even unconciously). Let us not be distracted by the fact that a child of 4 or 5 is ALREADY being treated as though she’s less than human because her friggin hair is not the universal standard. Don’t try to throw us off the trail by showing us a clear picture of the many reasons you might become weary in your constant anti-racist vigilance. It doesn’t matter that the BIGGEST reason you do what you do is the sometimes fleeting hope that your children will not have to face this horrific burden of race when they become the adults that we supposedly are right now.

By the way, none of the black people living today were ever slaves (yeah those people are all dead just like the white slave holders) so please explain why racism still exists even though all those involved are dead. And while you’re at it why does it seem that Michelle has to watch her ‘tone’ when relating the ways in which her family has to endure SOME people’s racism.

Posted 22 May 2008 at 9:24 pm ¶
Snafu Suz wrote:

L&N’s Mom wrote in comment #36, in reference to me, “I wonder how she feels after reading all of this.” Since I’m one of the people who instigated this discussion maybe I need to get back into the fray.

First I want to say I feel that the fact that there are nearly 40 comments now and the discussion is still going is a good thing. Yes, some feathers have been ruffled and some comments have gotten a bit heated, but I am glad to see these things are being discussed. Racism is a heated topic and I don’t think it’s possible to have an HONEST discussion without emotions running a little high. It’s one of those things that provokes strong feelings, but we won’t make much progress in the fight against racism if we aren’t willing to have uncomfortable conversations. So I want to say thank you to ALL the commenters for being willing to have a frank discussion.

I read the blog a couple of times, as well as all the comments. I read everything, set it all aside, and came back the next day to read them again. One theme that came up in the comments several times is that white people want a pat on the back. Gm stated in comment #19, “I don’t understand how the post got so turned around that now it’s all about helping ‘good intentioned white people’ feel better about themselves.” I can only speak for myself and my original comment, and that was not what I meant AT ALL. In reading through my own comment again I can see how that may have been inferred, but I want to clarify that I don’t want a pat on the back. I’m not looking for validation. I don’t need anyone here to make me feel better about myself. I don’t want kudos nor do I think I deserve kudos. That’s not what my comment was about.

The whole point of my comment had to do with ignorance vs. racism. I have thought about this a lot, and have wanted to discuss it with people of color so I can understand their perspective - at least as much as I can without having actually walked in their shoes. The thing that Michelle said that sparked my comment was this: “I get angry because I know there are plenty of racist white people out there who won’t admit to being so.” Yes I know that’s one small sentence in a post about something entirely different, but because ignorance vs. racism has been on my mind for a long time I wanted to ask her about that specific thought.

So the point of my original comment was to ask, are ignorance and racism the same thing from your perspective? In my mind it is not and I gave examples of why I felt that way, but I wanted to hear from Michelle - and everyone here - what their feeling is on this. That was the point of my comment, but interestingly no one even addressed that question. (Except Michelle, who later said “I think it’s a thought-provoking point and should be given full consideration, not just a quick response in the comments.”) Instead the focus turned to white people wanting kudos, which isn’t what I meant anyway. If my original comment wasn’t clear, I apologize.

Then, as a footnote to my question about ignorance vs. racism, I wanted to know if this kind of discussion - and someone like me who is admittedly ignorant about many things but wanting to learn - is welcome here. I know I am welcome to read and lurk, but am I welcome to ask questions and share my thoughts too?

Chicagomama said, “If I wanted to know how someone else feels, if I wanted to learn about their experiences and how those experiences differed from mine - I needed to be able to shut my own mouth and listen respectfully.” I agree with this 90%. Up to this point I have been lurking and listening and I will continue to do so. But I also think that asking questions and engaging in discussion is important too. I fully realize that as a white person I am part of the majority, that I can’t possibly know what it feels like to be part of the minority, and it is up to me to carry most of the burden of closing the racial gap. I need to listen respectfully and learn. I totally get that, and I agree with that. But I feel at some point questions need to be allowed. At some point discussion needs to happen. I can read and do research until I’m blue in the face but that will only take me so far. The gap can’t fully be closed if only one side is allowed to talk and one side must remain silent. It isn’t just up to white people to eliminate racism. It is up to PEOPLE.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 3:25 am ¶
L&N's Mom wrote:

Lyonside, I’m not one to take my ball and go home. I think my original post would have been better placed elsewhere as I said above “Maybe there is more going on in my head right now than just Michelle’s post” and in thinking more about this it is true.

I too watch DWTS and hear the Madame Butterfy comment and thought to myself - would they have put Marlee Matlin in Asian Inspired costume?

And when Michelle said “Honestly, I’ve been getting tired. I’m tired of fighting against racism and injustice—it’s a never-ending, exhausting battle.” I was relieved, then thought about the whole filter thing. We all fight out Anti-Racist battles from different battlefields.

I was not offended by Michelle’s post, it just gave me that final shove to speak up. Maybe that was bad, maybe this conversation is good - I don’t know.

My making this about me: I suppose I feel like I am behind enemy lines sometimes because there is an undertone of, for lack of better words “Anti-white” in a great deal of posts. And it pisses me off that so many white people have effected you and others this way. Those apples are killing me and some of the other apples if you get me. But on the other hand, it makes me feel like an outsider here, that I am “one of them”‘ if you will, and my comments may be taken more (or less) to heart when I state “I am a white Mom”.

I, like Suz, am not looking for validation so much as understanding - not you understanding me, but possibly more me understanding others better in hopes to have some defense in mind for the day my daughter comes home and asks why she’s never met her Grandparents or Uncle. These are the people I specifically refer to when I responded to Philippe. I try to read and hear and understand what got THEM to that hateful place so I can, possibly, not simply say “because they hate white people”, (which is a quote by the way). Because I don’t know what, exactly happened to them to get to that place. Possibly learning here from everyone’s experiences I may assume some of it, but I will never know unless they have these conversations with me.

I know that’s a ton of my personal baggage no one needs to bother with but I thought you might get a better feel for my perspective. I first came here over a year ago and Carmen posted my letter with the title “what if your black in-laws were the racist ones?” To which you, Lyonside, gave me wonderful support and I thank you once again. But even that title makes me a bit uneasy - because it has yet another undertone of “POC can’t be racist”. So I stuck around to learn and hopefully grow. I’ve lurked and wanted to get out of this shell.

A man I love told me once “everyone is a little racist” and I was horrified by that comment, until I started watching, and wondering. Here I am continuing that.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 7:50 am ¶
deesha wrote:

Temple:

We learned from Megan’s NYPD post that personal experiences and one’s vigilance about and concern for one’s children well-being can take a back seat to most anything in these discussions.

L&N wrote:
“I, like Suz, am not looking for validation so much as understanding - not you understanding me, but possibly more me understanding others better in hopes to have some defense in mind for the day my daughter comes home and asks why she’s never met her Grandparents or Uncle. These are the people I specifically refer to when I responded to Philippe. I try to read and hear and understand what got THEM to that hateful place so I can, possibly, not simply say “because they hate white people”, (which is a quote by the way). Because I don’t know what, exactly happened to them to get to that place. Possibly learning here from everyone’s experiences I may assume some of it, but I will never know unless they have these conversations with me.”

L&N, with all due respect, why do you feel anyone here can help shed light on your in-laws hatred of you in particular and white people in general? No one here speaks from a place of hate. While blacks here may have/have had similar negative experiences with whites as your in-laws, clearly we’ve taken a different path, one that is not hateful.

And again, with due respect, there’s no real mystery about your in-laws. They hate white people. That’s about being hateful not about being black. Some people are hateful. Hate is a hard concept for kids who aren’t raise to hate to understand, regardless of who is doing the hating and why. So I don’t know what more you can tell your kids other than the fact that some people are hateful, and to assure them that they are wonderful and perfect and that this has nothing to do with them personally. Empathize with the hurt they may feel, but empower them to be justice-minded and anti-racist.

In fact, attempting to go too far down the path of linking your in-laws’ hatred of white people to racism and injustice in this country could be counterproductive. By that I mean, your kids may believe that anyone who attempts to discuss, dismantle, or rail against racism and injustice automatically harbor hatred in their hearts. Of course this is not true, but there are adults who make this false connection.

I would encourage you to make sure that your kids know that your in-laws hatred is about them, not the kids, and not black people in general.

Finally, if I may get a little more personal…I would encourage you to separate your feelings of hurt, rejection, and disappointment from your children’s feelings about being ignored/rejected by their relatives. Heal yourself, and you will be in a better position to equip your kids. I don’t mean to make this sound easy at all.

Peace to you.

Suz wrote: “Then, as a footnote to my question about ignorance vs. racism, I wanted to know if this kind of discussion - and someone like me who is admittedly ignorant about many things but wanting to learn - is welcome here. I know I am welcome to read and lurk, but am I welcome to ask questions and share my thoughts too?”

First, I don’t understand when people ask if a particular discussion is welcome here. If it wasn’t Carmen would moderate your comment into the ether.

If people who read and comment here don’t want to participate in a particular discussion, they will ignore it.

Barring all that, what may seem to you as an unwelcome discussion is simply one in which people disagree with you. Plus, I’ll venture a guess, there is a degree of battle-fatigue in that disagreement, because many of us have gone down these discussions roads before. So it’s not the discussion is unwelcome–it just may be met with weariness and disagreement.

About ignorance vs. racism. Imo, two very important elements distinguish ignorance from racism: power and injustice, systemic and historical. I make a similar distinction between prejudice and racism.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 9:26 am ¶
deesha wrote:

Adding, to Suz:

The fact that people may express battle-weariness over a topic of interest to you is an insight in and of itself. Consider what that might mean, as you are reading and, yes, asking questions.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 9:37 am ¶
justamom wrote:

ignorance vs racism - my person opinion

I don’t think you can fairly generalize about this because as soon as you do you will find an ignorant racist person who genuinely wants to change. However, I will generalize for this discussion. I used to think I had a responsibility (which extended to my kids) to teach others about transracial families and about their own racist beliefs. I thought that many people just needed some help in exploring their beliefs and that they would be willing to change. Then I saw how their ignorance was stubborn and wilful; how they CHOSE their ignorance and clung to their unacknowleged racist beliefs; how they were unwilling to explore their thoughts. And I saw how their ignorance hurt my children just as much, if not more, than the purposeful racist attitudes of those who acknowledged their racism. In my life I have met many more voting adults (adults who control what happens at schools and banks, etc.) who believe that they are not racist, yet are ignorantly racist and support racism, than those who admit they are racist. So my personal opinion is that orgnorant racist people are the same as openly racist people because they actually are the majority and are causing my children the most harm.
The kindly white teacher who expects less from my Black daughter because she is Black harms my daughter on a daily basis. They yard duty teacher who is harder on her and corrects her for every little thing because she expects Black children to misbehave harms my daughter even though she thinks she is teaching her to behave. The insidious effects of ignorant racism have, by far, the greatest power to harm my children.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 9:49 am ¶
Phillipe wrote:

L&N’s Mom

First what you describe about your in-laws sounds terrible for you and your children. I would not wish that on any soul. My point was really about the language that is used when people talk about race and secondly to put things in a more social then personal perspective. For instance, the difficulties represented by your in-laws are very real but my question is are they able to keep white people from getting a job, buying a home, educating their children, getting sufficient health care, expose them to environmental toxins that cause all kinds of disease, incarcerate them at record numbers etc? In my view these are the most significant measures of racism, not just that someone doesn’t like another person because of his or her skin color. Of course this raises the issue of what people are talking about when they are talking about racism. I think some of the differences among the comments in this thread are related to different ways of defining and understanding the problem itself. If racism is essentially about people being mean to each other then much of what has been discussed here makes perfect sense and clearly you have the right to share your feelings about what you’ve experienced. If however, racism is about structures, about institutions, then at some point we have to shift the discussion in that direction. For example, the whole business about Dancing With the Stars. It was not necessary for anyone involved to hate Asians in order for a potentially dehumanizing stereotype to get played out on television. All that was necessary was that the producers, directors or whatever had the power to present that image to the public and exercised that power (however unconsciously it might have been done).

My point about hate was about the way in which that word is used to silence efforts by people of color to give voice to their experiences or cope with living in a racist society. For example, African American students choosing to live in an ethnic focused dormatory are accused of “hating” white people regardless of whether that is true or not. Or because you point out that we live in a racialized social order that privileges whites you “hate” white people. Again only you know your in-laws so I’m in no position to assess how they feel about whites one way or the other. My question is whether or not their attitude is representative of people of color in this country in general. My experience suggests otherwise.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 1:43 pm ¶
L&N's Mom wrote:

Deesha -
Thank you for that - it was well received. And to clarify - I only seek to understnad the cause of their hatred, to which I have been told was partly due to racism THEY faced. If that makes sense. Maybe it is ignorant of me to think if I learn more about racism, I’d understand how it effects a person. Again, I’ve never been in their shoes - nor they in mine.

And I in NO WAY think that other blacks are like them - it may happen, but I suppose people of any color can be just as hateful for different reasons. It is just them and how they have evolved. It’s sad really.

My Husband just sent me: “People watch us everywhere we go, all races… What we do has an impact on their lives and their thoughts about interracial couples and families… Surely, we cannot begin to sway their thoughts but plant a seed/thought through the successful way we live our lives… If our words sway someone then that is gravy… ” I think the advise I seek was closer than I thought.

Posted 23 May 2008 at 3:09 pm ¶
dianne m wrote:

Okay - this is off topic but is in response to the post…I always saw “Madame Butterfly” as a tragedy. It’s….romantic???

A woman loves a man, is faithful to him and believes in him. He is selfish and doesn’t take her seriously (and sees his relationship w/ her as a natural “spoil” of war)….and it kills her.

Maybe I am incredibly naive…where could any sane person find romance in that?

Posted 26 May 2008 at 2:01 pm ¶
Cindy wrote:

Where do I start? I guess the first thing that occurred to me was the similarities in the stories of Madame Butterfly and “La Llorona,” the folkloric tale told across Latin America. As I’m sure you know, while there are many versions of La Llorona, one of them tells of an indigenous indian that gets dumped by a Spaniard for a Spaniard after the indian bears his children. To avenge his betrayal, she throws her children in the river.

Second, I think it speaks volumes when Chris Matthews corners one of Clinton’s spokespeople, aggressively trying to coax her to speak on the issue of many Kentucky voters admitting to pollsters that they voted on racial lines. Even more interesting was the way the spokesperson did or didn’t answered the question of whether Clinton had ever come out and denounced those who vote on racial lines in addition to those who vote on gender lines. She seemingly had not much with which to answer in the affirmative….it was not lost on the audience that in the case of Kentucky it wasn’t that Obama didn’t court or couldn’t tap into the “hard working white” demographic as the Clinton campaign likes to put it ad nauseum, so much as it was that those voters weren’t disposed to vote for Obama from the minute they laid their weary eyes on the Senator…

What can I say but that I am disappointed in the Kentucky debacle… But, not terribly surprised.

Posted 27 May 2008 at 3:11 pm ¶
BCmomtobe wrote:

‘I think what is often missing in the conversation about how white people feel when people of color point out the structural racism that we all deal with on a day to day basis is the issue of agency’. Well said. I too am a white person, trying to rid myself of racist attitudes I didn’t even know I had. I am not proud of them, but they won’t go away without examining and challenging them. I too have faced racism from people of colour, but if we are to ever overcome this, we can not just sit back and say ‘Well they’re racist too, so nyahh!’ In my case, I listened to racist comments, and not just about whites, at a First Nations school where I taught, and I knew I’d be out of a job if I complained. It hurt like heck. I also knew that when my tires hit the highway at the end of the day, I was back on ‘my turf’, and back to priviledge.

By the way, I am galled by that comment regarding the tribal chiefs exchanging their people for gifts. That may well have happened, but honestly, do you think those chiefs had much choice? Had the chiefs refused he Europeans, with their more powerful weapons, would have dispensed with the gifts, and taken the locals as slaves anyway. This was a really silly thing to say because none of those people should have been taken in the first place.

Also, if I am to be an anti-racist parent, I need to know what to call my children on. I have never heard the term ‘dot head’. While it sounds like something awful to call someone else, I really am naive on its meaning. Anyone care to educate me on this?

Posted 31 May 2008 at 3:54 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:

>While it sounds like something awful to call someone else, I really am naive on its meaning.

“dothead” is a derogatory comment against South Asians (Indian subcontinent, primarily); it references, I believe, the practice by which some Hindus place a “dot” on the forehead, esp. for ceremonies and special occasions. But I’ve also heard it used against anyone brown with a discernible Middle Eastern, Central Asian, or South Asian accent.

Posted 02 Jun 2008 at 9:20 am ¶
BCmomtobe wrote:

Thanks Lyonside, now that I know what it is, it’s even more horrible than I thought. Yuck!

Posted 02 Jun 2008 at 10:23 am ¶

Race and I’m Running

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