Is it just me?
by Anti-Racist Parent columnist Meera Bowman-Johnson, originally published at Not the Nanny
My mother always told me not to stare, but I soon realized that’s not always possible. So I decided that at the very least, if one must silently judge another, it absolutely should not be done blatantly. And never, ever, with one’s mouth hanging open. (That’s just rude!) But I guess everybody wasn’t taught that, because this guy at the playground was ogling my kids as if he was a wolf in man’s clothing, staring at my children like they were running around in red capes. Instinctively, I peeled myself off the park bench and made it my business to know why.
As I got closer, we made eye-contact and I realized he was smiling. Creepy? Yes — but not in the way that made me want to call the police (just yet).
“Your children, they are all so…different.” At least his tongue wasn’t hanging out.
“They are,” I forced politely. My mother also taught me not to talk to strangers, but I’m grown now and I didn’t really appreciate his comments. I resented his taking a moment to point out how his ethnic group was “normal” and mine was “not”.
“I might not even know they’re all related, “ he chuckled, as if it was any business of his in the first place.
“They’re actually siblings.” I’m sure that whatever attempt I made at smiling back at him was canceled out by the fact that I was bracing myself – hard – for his next question.
“What race is the father?”
Bingo! “My husband’s mixed, actually…his mom is black and his dad is Irish American.” It came out with a sigh that was barely audible, but I couldn’t have cared less if he’d heard me.
“Unbelievable!” he marveled, “All the same dad?”
“All the same dad.” I repeated after him, just in case he was actually and undercover casting-agent for Maury Povitch. And then for some reason, I felt the need to keep talking, as if I had to have the last word on a subject that really had no conclusion to begin with. “If you really look at all three of them, they look alike…the twins actually look a lot like both sides of our families.” I was stammering like a Mormon tour guide at a sex toy museum. I hated explaining something so basic to complete strangers, as if my life is actually some great big science experiment.
“Twins!” he squealed in amazement. “On top of that, they’re twins?!” He giggled gleefully. “So different and both so unique!”
“Thanks.” Of course they are. But not for the reason you think, moron.
When I gave birth to two perfect babies with complexions as strikingly different as Hillary and Barack’s, I knew that the world might not instantly see that they’re actually brother and sister. But I never thought that perfect strangers would have the audacity to comment on this difference time and time again. I assumed most people — of any race — already knew that black people weren’t actually “black” and that the range of skin tones within the ethnicity could put Crayola out of business. But ever since day one, from the playground to the pediatrician’s, perfect strangers insisted on piping in: “They look so different!” or “You’d never even know they were related!”.
Or other things, like how different their hair textures were. It’s honestly left me often wondering if half the country flunked eighth-grade biology. At the very least eleventh-grade history, when were supposed to have learned about the “peculiar institution” of slavery.
Slowly, I began to gather up our belongings. Enough already. I shoved my son’s Curious George ball in my tote bag and started searching for my youngest daughter’s shoe. We might have to leave here without it, I thought, but at least we’ll go home with our dignity. I was so tired of protecting my beloveds from a world that sees them as anomalies, so angry at all of the supposedly educated people who felt the need to make a spectacle of them instead of seeing them for who and what they really are.
“It’s so amazing what happens when the races are blended together — you never know what you’ll get!”
“You’re right, you never know.” I said matter-of-factly as I fished my daughter’s mary jane from a puddle.
“So fascinating,” he smiled humbly, “so beautiful.”
Meera Bowman-Johnson writes about parenting, pop-culture and politics. She lives in Houston, Texas, with her husband, their precocious six-year-old and unpredictable two-year-old twins.
Carmen Van Kerckhove is co-founder and president of 
Jeff wrote:
Have you ever thought of feigning ignorance? Just replying, “I don’t know what you mean. If I didn’t dress the twins differently from each other I don’t know if I could tell them apart!” This might make it clear to the person making the comment that they’re their comments are coming from expectations they have that aren’t accurate and highlights those expectations by articulating them.
There’s a technique I use with my children some times. Instead of saying, “I need you to get ready faster in the morning,” I’ll say, “thanks for getting ready so quickly this morning.” It puts the idea of getting ready quickly in their heads with a positive association (the compliment) and helps them get ready faster next time. I wonder if there’s a way to apply that here.
In an unusual way this is a manifestation of the “All [members of ethnic group X] look alike” syndrome. It takes a certain amount of exposure to an ethnic group to learn the nuances of variation.
Here’s a small scale example: you visit a new friend who has 6 boys ages 4-12. It takes a while to be able to remember who’s who.
My older brother and I have a lot of variations in our appearance. He’s got an olive complexion and straight black hair. I’ve got a pale, ruddy complexion and curly brown hair. When I was living in Congo, my friends would sometimes express disbelief that we were brothers (I had some pictures with me). But in America, folks look at the shape of our faces, cheekbones and eye placement and see that we look pretty similar.
Of course I understand that it’s not your job to enlighten everyone who doesn’t get out enough. And it’s never POLITE to comment on appearances. (”Yes, ma’am, I agree that my daughter is pretty. But it isn’t her identity. She IS friendly, intelligent, adventurous and kind.”) But I hope you can take some comfort in knowing the issue you’re experiencing isn’t limited to ‘mixed-race’ siblings.
- Jeff
Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 8:58 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>It’s honestly left me often wondering if half the country flunked eighth-grade biology.
Short answer:
they did, since it wasn’t on the achievement tests;
or the school barely touched on genetics for fear of talking about S-E-X;
or the program was OK, but the school was so UNdiverse that when they paired students up to figure out what their imaginary kids might look like based on their own phenotypes, there wasn’t enough diversity to go around and every “child” cross came out looking like everyone else, or where there was diversity, the teacher didn’t want to single out the FEW kids, so skin color and hair texture was skipped over (can you tell which school I went to?)
>At the very least eleventh-grade history, when were supposed to have learned about the “peculiar institution” of slavery.
Again, bleeped over, minimized, trivialized, or just not gotten into (again, the S-E-X thing, along with the non-consent thing, along with the passing thing). I really pity history teachers with social consciences.
>And it’s never POLITE to comment on appearances.
When did this lesson get lost? Because if I hear one more well-meaning white suburbanite mom remarking on my kid’s “fair” skin and acting like it’s a compliment to look white, I’m going to scream.
Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 9:39 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:
Bah - double post, and a paragraph got lost. Evil computers…
To my first post, should be added:
———————————————-
Oh, and typing that, let me clarify: I am not hating on white people. I mean that while it’s fine to have pale skin (heck, 1/2 my family does), it shouldn’t be seen as an automatic beauty trait. All skin colors can be and should be viewed as beautiful in their own way. Human skin is a miraculous adaptation, IDIC at work.
But if you compliment my kid based on her skin color and expect a positive/polite response, you are making me complicit in supporting a European beauty standard. You are complimenting my kid because she looks more “normal” (like YOU) and less like me, and that is unacceptable.
Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 9:49 am ¶
harlemjd wrote:
Lyonside - go ahead and scream, that shit is rude, and if people are so poorly socialized that they don’t realize it, that’s their problem. Same goes for the idiot who thought he had a right to ask about Meera’s sex life. (how the hell is “All the same father?” NOT begging for a knee in the groin?)
Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 12:35 pm ¶
Karen wrote:
I didn’t understand from your post why you had this conversation. It sounded like it made you miserable in anticipation, during, and in retrospect. I gather that you first approached him to make sure he wasn’t a threat, responded to his first remark out of politeness, and at one point continued out of “the need to keep talking, as if [you] had to have the last word.” If there is more to it, and you are inclined to elaborate, I would be interested to read.
On rereading the conversation only, skipping your unspoken thoughts, I see that the conversation was shorter than it seemed to me at first. That makes it easier for me to picture.
Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 1:37 pm ¶
Julie wrote:
My favorite answer to ignorant question is “why do you want to know”. If someone has a genuine reason for asking the question - they will explain themselves. If they are just being a nosy pain in the ass - they’ll usually just shut up. If they do, however, continue - I usually shut them up with a well timed “what an intimate question to ask a complete stranger”.
Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 2:02 pm ¶
Kandee wrote:
For goodness sakes! I have experienced the same with my first two boys 6 and 3. Younger one has red hair. All of a sudden, my oldest one isn’t cute enough compared to his ‘wow - what is he?’ younger brother. I don’t know what to say other than I sympathize with you. Some days, I go all out with the lecture. Some days, I just wanna cry. It’s not fair. I have to give some people credit though, as they will try to relate with their blond/brown hair or blue/brown eyes stories. We chuckle. I throw out the mixed-race language. They understand without further clarification. On those occasions, it’s not so bad.
Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 7:53 pm ¶
Zaki wrote:
This is very refreshing to know that this blog exists! Thank you for being here and speaking up!
Posted 12 Mar 2008 at 8:05 pm ¶
more cowbell wrote:
I know people say some ignorant things, but that bit about “all the same father?” was really going too far. I don’t know that I’d have had the patience to let that one pass.
I used to get the opposite from white people with my 2 girls, 19months apart: “oh they must be twins! How do you tell them apart?” One lady even asked if I was “sure” they weren’t twins. What?
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 3:28 am ¶
Gigi wrote:
Thank you for posting your experience at the playground. I have run into similar situations many times throughout my life, first as a person of color who has an advanced degree and everyone wonders how I did it, as if . . . then as a mother, explaining that my children are not biologically related, despite sharing an ethnic background. I chuckle when I think of asking the same questions of the person who is being intrusive (are you biologically related to all of your siblings, that you know of, and what education level did you accomplish and just how did you do that with the level of socialization you have!). I’m always amazed and saddened that ignorance is alive and well.
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 9:10 am ¶
justamom wrote:
I have begun running into a little different twist on this during the past year. I am a white mom with four black daughters. One is my biological biracial daughter. She is 27 and married to a black man. When looking for specific products (hair and skin care) I have mentioned to a store assistant that I am looking for ethnic products. During the course of the conversation I have had sales people say to me that I am so lucky to have a black SIL as my grandbabies are going to be so cute. Or “My mother keeps telling me to marry a black man and give her some cute grandbabies.” I find this extremely offensive on several levels. It has happened 3 or 4 times in the last several months. I am still struggling to find an appropriate comeback. It still just floors me as I think about these situations, but for some reason I find it harder to express myself in the face of these comments. I usually have no problem dealing with offensive/intrusive/racist remarks.
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 11:15 am ¶
Ryan wrote:
I guess my take on the conversation is different. Yes, it was VERY rude for him to ask if they had the same father, etc. In fact, most of his comments seemed rude.
But if you look deeper, perhaps he really was a man who was admiring the beauty of mixed races and just lacked tact. He did say at the end that it was “so fascinating” and “so beautiful”, and I agree. The fact there is more than just black children, or white children… the fact there there can be a beautiful rainbow of colors (as shown by your own children) IS fascinating and beautiful.
Albiet he sounds a bit creepy, but it also sounds like his thoughts and intentions were good… his delivery and approach just sucked.
Ryan
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 11:41 am ¶
Gillian wrote:
I’ve had the opposite experience - out with my niece (quarter chinese, 3/4 white), my goddaughter (half cambodian, half white) and my daughter (100% chinese), they were all assumed to be my bio daughters (and I’m hapa).
The fact is that what most white people see and reason over is race. This guy even used the word twice in a short conversation, showing a certain fixation. No-one exclaims when two white siblings have different coloured hair, eyes or skin.
However, to be fair, I would be surprised/curious to meet white bio siblings where one was olive-skinned and dark-haired and the other was pale-skinned and (naturally) blonde-haired. So would you - be honest.
But I would definitely not have bothered responding after “I wouldn’t even know they were related”.
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 12:23 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>But if you look deeper, perhaps he really was a man who was admiring the beauty of mixed races and just lacked tact.
Ryan, positive stereotypes are still stereotypes and potentially damaging.
Mixed people can be attractive. Mixed people can be less attractive, by whatever beauty standard a society has. Mixed people are NOT beautiful JUST by the sheer FACT of being mixed. The perception of that, and the mixed people who believe the press, are one reason why some minorities resent mixed people to begin with. And (not in this case) isn’t it curious that the majority of people, celebrities, models, whatever that people see as mixed and beautiful are almost universally with approximately 1/2 European ancestry? Which means that pesky European beauty standard is still being reinforced. This is a global phenom (thinking particularly about Asian news and media markets).
>He did say at the end that it was “so fascinating” and “so beautiful”,
A nebula is fascinating. So is a flower. So is the lattice structure of a cell membrane. Then again, you can be fascinated with disturbing or disgusting things, not just beautiful things. The point is, when people are fascinated by objects, they’re usually studying or objectively admiring said objects - there’s a distancing and an analyzation occurring. When people are fascinated by other people, it’s usually in stalker mode or when talking about celebrities, etc…. in which case, they are still objectifying the person.
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 1:01 pm ¶
Zaki wrote:
Yeah, sometimes people are genuinely clueless of mixed race children and are amazed at their existence and beauty. I think the guy in the article was genuinely shocked by what he was seeing, since he probably wasn’t exposed to ’something like that’ before. I wouldn’t look at it as a freak show, sometimes you just have to realize that people don’t get out much.
Of course, there are a ton of ignorant folks out there that you just walk away from, but from what I read, he didn’t seem like one of them.
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 3:04 pm ¶
Lisa (Blah Blah) wrote:
Ugh, this is all too often my experience. My husband is African-American, a dark chocolate color. I am mixed black/white/Native American, but very light-skinned with green eyes. To most people I appear white. Our daughter is a beautiful golden brown, considerably darker in complexion than I am.
If she and my husband are out together, no one says a thing to him about her except how beautiful (and well-behaved) she is. Me? Oh my God, I can not tell you how many times I have been with her at Target or the grocery store, just trying to do my business, and had somebody comment on the fact that we look so different. Aside from the difference in complexion, there’s a really strong facial resemblance between the two of us.
I find myself in the position of educating people all the time., rather than being negative or rude (especially in front of my daughter). At the same time, she is getting to the age where she will notice what people say. I don’t want to reinforce that it is normal to have to explain who we are all the time, so I obviously have to come up with a different tactic. If I figure out a way to be dismissive without being rude, I’ll let you know!
Sorry for the long comment, but you clearly hit a nerve!
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 3:43 pm ¶
amy wrote:
my daughter is latino and my husband and I are anglo - everytime someone remarks how beautiful she is I wonder would you say that if I wasn’t white? I just smile and say thank you.
surprisingly for the small town we live in with a large latino community but still segregated we have not gotten too many comments. However I can’t tell you how many times we got the “does she speak english”…sigh…
this man was clearly rude. I would love to hear what folks would say to comments like this - comments that you can say in front of your children, not the ones you might be screaming in your head.
thanks for a great post.
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 8:28 pm ¶
Andrea wrote:
You know, I get that it must be a pain to have people interested in your family, but like it or not, your kids are probably always going to attract a certain amount of attention. My aunt was more amused than anything else many years ago when a new neighbor on the Indian reservation they were living on asked her if my cousins had different fathers because they looked so different. One of my cousins had brown hair and dark brown eyes and her little sister was very fair skinned, with light blonde hair and very blue eyes. They are indeed full sisters, just sisters who took after different sides of the family. That’s the sort of thing that just happens when there are any differences in appearance and unless someone is being mean about it rather than just rude or awkward, a rude response in return seems kind of counterproductive. I doubt I’d say anything to you if I saw your kids out in public, but I probably would find the genetics just as interesting as the guy you ran into does. Genetics is simply fascinating. Hopefully you’ll come up with a response to use that’ll work for you and your kids.
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 10:08 pm ¶
christine wrote:
I’ll say this, I love babies. Any color, race, creed, ethnicity… it doesn’t matter. If a baby (or any small child, really) makes eye contact with me I’m gonna coo, tell them they are beautiful, and tell the parent(s) they are lucky to have such a beautiful baby. But thats it. The most intrusive my questions will get is “how old is your baby”. I’m sure this man was thinking he was being friendly and accepting, unfortunately he was just being crass and clueless. His intentions sound good but his actions were flawed.
Posted 13 Mar 2008 at 10:53 pm ¶
Krista wrote:
In the same vein, my husband, who is Filipino/white and looks very Filipino. His mother looks very white. When she was moving from the Phillipines to the United States, she had to have a signed affadavit from the ob-gyn who had delivered him that he was indeed her son. She was still delayed several weeks from leaving, because no one could believe that such a light-skinned woman could have given birth to such a brown baby.
Posted 14 Mar 2008 at 3:58 am ¶
Karen wrote:
Re: what Gillian said at #13, my friend of Northern European descent and her Spanish husband have three sons. The first looks like her, pale & blond, and the second looks like him–dark everything, although clearly European. The third is only a few weeks old so who knows how he’ll turn out? So it does happen. And it probably is surprising, to those who see the boys with only one parent. FWIW.
Posted 17 Mar 2008 at 9:22 am ¶
Ryan wrote:
WOW LYONSIDE! You really enjoy picking my posts apart, don’t you??!
Anyway, here is my point. You said, in response to my statment, that “Ryan, positive stereotypes are still stereotypes and potentially damaging.”
I don’t think that admiring the “beauty of mixed races” = steryotyping. Here’s why:
1. Many many years ago, “mixing” races was not AS acceptable as it is now. I, personally, think that race “mixing” is a beautiful thing because it means that we are moving (though slowly) toward becoming a less racist society. Is that steryotyping?? NO!
2. I also think that the genetic factors in “race mixing” are BEAUTIFUL and FASCINATING. Why is that wrong? Does it mean that I think the “white” aspects of the bi-racial child are more beautiful than the black? NO! It means that I think the two togethor are beautiful. The black dads full lips, and coarse curly hair mix BEAUTIFULLY with the white mom’s full figure and green eyes. It doesn’t mean that I like the “european” aspects better. I don’t think those are any more or less beautiful that the black aspects. Perhaps to someone who is racist, that may be the way things are viewed… but not to me.
A flower is beautiful, a nebulus is beautiful, the human species and ALL OF ITS COMPONENTS are BEAUTIFUL. If that’s bad for me to think, than so be it.
You also said that “When people are fascinated by other people, it’s usually in stalker mode or when talking about celebrities, etc”. So, your saying (by your definition of “a stalker”), if I’m fascinated with Ghandi or the Dhali Lamma, or the little boy on Ellen Degenerous who can play the piano better than Mozart, than I’m a STALKER? Give me a break. Give people the benefit of the doubt. Ryan
Posted 17 Mar 2008 at 12:01 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>You really enjoy picking my posts apart, don’t you??!
It’s not personal. As in, I’m not following you around. I’ve been on this site for a while, I’m a contributor, and I respond to posts as they hit me and as my personal time warrants. Some weeks I have more time to address posts and comments than others.
>I don’t think that admiring the “beauty of mixed races” = steryotyping.
OK, I pointed out specifically why it is a stereotype. So be it.
>1. Many many years ago, “mixing” races was not AS acceptable as it is now. I, personally, think that race “mixing” is a beautiful thing because it means that we are moving (though slowly) toward becoming a less racist society.
OK, I took “beautiful” in the physical beauty level, which is usually how people apply it when discussing physical features.
It often comes up in multiethnic organizations and blogs that the fact that mixed people exist does not mean that the society at large becomes less racist.
If “race mixing” (and I don’t approve of that term, BTW - there is not real “race” and the term has negative baggage) automatically makes for a less racist society, then our current racial discussions would have been dealt with, oh, about 350 years ago.
>. I also think that the genetic factors in “race mixing” are BEAUTIFUL and FASCINATING. Why is that wrong?
Because there are no “black” or “white” genes. There are no set genes for ANY broad category we call “race” in the US or anywhere else. What we have are clusters of physical phenotypes that are prevalent or dominant in a given population or subpopulation. But there will always be extensive diversity within a population, even if it’s recessive genes that are less often expressed.
>Does it mean that I think the “white” aspects of the bi-racial child are more beautiful than the black?
You realize you just turned this entire discussion into a “white/non-white” one? I repeat: isn’t it curious that the majority of people, celebrities, models, whatever that people see as mixed and beautiful are almost universally with approximately 1/2 European ancestry?
>The black dads full lips, and coarse curly hair mix BEAUTIFULLY with the white mom’s full figure and green eyes.
Um, that stereotypical description is a tad bit offensive. Not to mention NOT accurate for every person of that admixure. Not to mention that there is NO way to tell which traits will be inherited. And what does full figure mean?
>If that’s bad for me to think, than so be it.
That’s not what I said, Please reread.
I repeat:
The point is, when people are fascinated by objects, they’re usually studying or objectively admiring said objects - there’s a distancing and an analyzation occurring.
That was the point - I’m not calling anyone a “stalker” in the criminal sense. But there is an objectification going on. There is a TENDENCY to see the person as a symbol, as a stand-in, as a model for every person of that background, and not as an individual.
I am biracial, BTW. I don’t often match the “typical” description of a black/white first generation person. Neither do a lot of briacial people I know. We all look DIFFERENT. So I repeat, how can we all attract the same level of attention?
>Give people the benefit of the doubt.
Um, again, it wasn’t personal. Sorry you took it that way. But I do wish you could LISTEN to what people who are biracial and those who are obviously (visually) ethnically diverse (since noone cares much about a Danish/Irish person the way they care about a black/white person in this country) can tell you about their experiences and the experiences of others before taking offense.
Many/most of us have HEARD “mixed is beautiful” our whole lives. And for some of us, that’s true. For others who didn’t get hit quite so hard with the beauty stick, it’s not as true. And for others regardless of physical features who are not 1/2 white and 1/2 something non-white, there is often a sense of being EXTRA invisible.
Multiethnic people in general are often told that they are a bridge. Well, who made us bridges? Why do we have to do the work, instead of it being everyone’s responsibility?
This is not an attack. It’s factual and based on personal experience. It’s based on what happens when you get people of many ethnic backgrounds, different from each other, in the same place at the same time - we find out that many of our experiences with the core dominant culture, in our schools, in our politics, in our relationships, in our language encounters, are the same. And it rarely fits the “mixed people are beautiful/best of both worlds/bridge over troubled racial waters” mantra that we grew up with. We are individual, and deserve to be seen as individuals.
Posted 17 Mar 2008 at 3:08 pm ¶
deesha wrote:
Lyonside wrote:
**But I do wish you could LISTEN to what people who are biracial and those who are obviously (visually) ethnically diverse (since noone cares much about a Danish/Irish person the way they care about a black/white person in this country) can tell you about their experiences and the experiences of others…**
I’m listening. I’ve learned a lot from your comments through this thread, and while it’s not your responsibility to educated people, I do appreciate your taking time to elaborate on experiences that I’m not deeply familiar with.
Posted 18 Mar 2008 at 10:06 am ¶
Gillian wrote:
Lyonside - hear, hear!
Posted 18 Mar 2008 at 2:37 pm ¶
Anita wrote:
This sentence “I was stammering like a Mormon tour guide at a sex toy museum” is priceless!
People compliment my daughter all the time on her looks. They say she’s a “perfect mix” of her (white) father and me (Indian), but she really looks more like her dad (she somehow got blue-gray eyes).
And I realized that I secretly fear for my next child, because s/he might look more like *me*– more brown!! And people might not like her/him as much! It runs deep, doesn’t it?
I have to agree with the other commenter who said the conversation would have been over after the guy asked “Same father?” Uh, goodbye.
Posted 18 Mar 2008 at 10:07 pm ¶
h sofia wrote:
I used to be approached by people all the time when I was Muslim and wore hijab. The vast, vast majority of people who came up to me were respectful; often they wanted to express support for my religious choice and expression - likely assuming (quite accurately) that it was not easy to be a woman in hijab in the US. My friends and I would sometimes feel shy or embarrassed, but it was always seen as a positive experience. Some Muslim women feel it’s a form of da’wah (a teaching opportunity).
But it sounds like that experience is *very* different from that of biracial (or “apparently” biracial) children. It’s not right to come up to a (seemingly) bi/multi-racial child and say “What ethnicity are you?” But it’s okay (at least for the people I know) to approach a person who is dressed in religious garb and ask them about that.
I’m trying to put my finger on why these two things are difference. What do you think? Is it because religion is a choice or a lifestyle?
Posted 19 Mar 2008 at 9:02 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>I’m trying to put my finger on why these two things are difference. What do you think? Is it because religion is a choice or a lifestyle?
I think the tone of questions is important, whether it’s about ethnicity, religion, or sometimes both (or anything, really).
I think you’re right, it may be seen as more acceptable to ask about religion because is it a choice (usually, at least when talking about adults), and if that religious conviction guides one to an outward expression, then it is a choice how that adult or child of a certain age shows it. But the way people do it is very important.
When I see someone in a headdress or cap, I don’t automatically assume they are Muslim, although I’ll put it in the “possible/probable” category. And I’ve met many Muslim women who don’t wear hijab. It would be the same if I meet someone who appears to be Hasidim (although that’s pretty obvious for men - less so for women). Or someone wearing a collar, as many Christian clergy do. If I’m talking to them, and it comes up and I have the opportunity, I’ll ask, or wait until I can share my own religious background. But I personally wouldn’t come up to someone and make it the first and only thing I said to them. It’s the same if someone appears to be Old Order or Mennonite.
Now, I come from the Roman Catholic tradition, and went to schools where nuns routinely did NOT wear a habit. A few wore the headdress and not the dress. Most wore neither (Lord and Taylor dress suits that lasted 20 years were the norm) , and students had to learn to spot the pin or pendant of the order to tell lay teachers from the Sisters. Spotting priests, if they’re not in clergy black with a collar or part of a religious order with a dress code, is almost impossible.
When I notice religious symbols, necklaces, garments, etc. I try to use it as a way to know the proper terms of address, and sometimes to slightly change my behavior [ex: as a woman, if I met a man in Hasidic garments, I would speak to him, but wouldn’t attempt to shake hands].
Along those same lines, I do not make a practice of asking other people, even if I think/suspect they are multiethnic, etc., what they are. If it comes up, if they volunteer, if we’re having a conversation, then great! I definitely notice families that are more ethnically diverse, but I’m not going to single them out.
People don’t exist to satisfy my personal interests, and if someone assumes so, it is likely because they are coming from a position of dominance and privilege, or they wish to appear as such.
Posted 19 Mar 2008 at 10:16 am ¶
Jeremy Pierce wrote:
This isn’t something that just white people do. It isn’t necessarily about privilege even when there are faulty assumptions. A black kid at the playground went through a long line of questions with me about my son, wondering if he was adopted, why his hair is sort of kinky, and so on. My wife’s family and church circles, consisting of mostly black people from the West Indies, seem just as likely to comment on how beautiful our kids are as anyone else.
Some people, believe it or not, actually just think the fact that mixed-race children exist is beautiful, because it’s a sign of some progress in how people have seen each other and come to accept relationships that haven’t always been as accepted as they are now. People tell us our kids are beautiful all the time, but I can think of lots of explanations that are at least not blameworthy, and some are somewhat noble. Some people appreciate the fact that we now have more variety of what kids look like. They see particular traits that have been less common, particularly in single-race circles. Perhaps they have mixed-race kids in their immediate life and are appreciating the variety among mixed-race appearances or simply recognizing the good in mixed-race relationships. Some people may simply wonder about the makeup of people because they find genetics fascinating and consider the beauty of people in general to be much more breathtaking than they had imagined in a more sheltered environment. Isn’t that a good things?
I’m not going to deny that sometimes this kind of question comes from unhealthy views, false assumptions, and a real lack of understanding of people’s personal space and privacy. I also don’t want to say that all the above explanations are equally innocent, equally appropriate, or equally likely. But I don’t think we ought to assume we know what’s going on when we don’t know the people or their background, though, and I think most of the people here are happy to jump to such conclusions as long as the person they’re jumping to conclusions about is white.
Posted 22 Mar 2008 at 4:41 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>My wife’s family and church circles, consisting of mostly black people from the West Indies, seem just as likely to comment on how beautiful our kids are as anyone else.
And that would have nothing to do with internalized racism reflecting a European beauty aesthetic, would it?
As I said in my first comment, I am not hating on white people (and neither is anyone else). But recently (and yes, as of this weekend by a near-stranger) the comments regarding my own child have come from well-meaning white people.
I have had the experience, about 18 months ago, of sitting in a restaurant outside on a deck, with my hair down, when an African-American middle-aged woman leaving her own table stroked my entire head, scalp to ends, and said, in passing, “That’s some good hair.” I was shocked enough to only get out an “All hair is good hair” comment. One grown adult pawing another grown adult, while using a phrase loaded with racist double standards…
But I guess it’s just because “mixed is beautiful?”
>Perhaps they have mixed-race kids in their immediate life and are appreciating the variety among mixed-race appearances or simply recognizing the good in mixed-race relationships.
There are ways to do this without resorting to stereotypes of physical features.
>Some people may simply wonder about the makeup of people because they find genetics fascinating and consider the beauty of people in general to be much more breathtaking than they had imagined
Then I expect them to compliment ALL children on their appearance on a regular basis, of all complexions and genetic inheritances. I am no more genetically diverse than any other human being - my diversity is perhaps closer to the surface than others or more visually apparent.
Since most people do NOT do this, I cannot attribute those altruistic intents. People say “beautiful,” and they may mean it… but many say “beautiful” and mean “unusual,” or say “beautiful” and mean “more like X group - thank God.”
My favorite T-shirt has those generic “person” signs (like on a restroom door) in a daisy chain, with the caption, “You’re unique. Just like everyone else.”
>I think most of the people here are happy to jump to such conclusions as long as the person they’re jumping to conclusions about is white.
See above anecdote. We live in a world that has globally internalized a white beauty standard. We live in a society where it is still 99% likely that anyone in pop culture, media, entertainment, etc. who looks anything like my family is a stereotype or background “color.” Calling it the “European beauty standard” doesn’t mean that only people of European background have that standard.
Posted 24 Mar 2008 at 9:15 am ¶
Jeremy Pierce wrote:
And that would have nothing to do with internalized racism reflecting a European beauty aesthetic, would it?
Not if it’s just as common as they say it about anyone’s kids. People comment on how beautiful babies are. They do it all the time. Sometimes it comes from internalized racist attitudes, and sometimes it comes from a more enlightened desire to see the other as beautiful. Sometimes it’s just out of finding the kid beautiful. It may be out of a view that mixed is beautiful, and it may not be.
There are ways to do this without resorting to stereotypes of physical features.
Yes, and not all cases of someone pointing out to me that my kids are beautiful are resorting to such things.
Then I expect them to compliment ALL children on their appearance on a regular basis, of all complexions and genetic inheritances.
I think people in that category do exactly that. I think they’re rarer than the other categories, but I do think they exist. Some people just like to tell all parents that their kids are beautiful, and they’ll do it even if it’s at odds with the beauty standards they’ve been enculturated to have (ones in this case they’re resisting).
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 8:42 am ¶
Jeremy Pierce wrote:
I should add one thing. In Christian theology there’s a view called total depravity. The idea is that every area of humanity is affected by the fall, and thus sin and evil taint anything we might do. But most people who accept that view do not think that everything we do is as bad as it could be.
I think there’s something like that going on here. I do think racial stereotypes, narratives, and so on will cloud most perceptions of most people much of the time. But I try not to assume motives unless I’m sure, and I try not to assume a particular racial narrative, stereotype, or assumption is going on unless I’m sure. Other explanations occur within the tainted social order. Just because everyone is affected by these things, and just because certain kinds of comments often come out in certain contexts for certain reasons, doesn’t mean any time such comments appear it’s for those reasons.
I believe in extending people charity and taking them in the best way consistent with the information I have, just in case they’re not the way some would assume them to be. I see enough change going on in overcoming racism (even if a long way still remains) that we’ll frustrate by alienating well-meaning people trying to overcome their own racism. For the sake of not doing that, I want to hesitate at making particular accusations at particular people (although raising good questions to make them think is good, as long as it’s not done in an accusatory way, and that might also depend on what kind of relationship you have, which is much harder with strangers).
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 8:49 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>Not if it’s just as common as they say it about anyone’s kids. People comment on how beautiful babies are.
Jeremy: on this we totally agree - I am one of those people that think all babies of a certain age are absolutely adorable, and I’ll say as much to a parent. Something about the big eyes, usually, or if their hair is particularly fluffy or growing in in a cute/funny way. My first cousin had a mohawk for her first year - only grew on top, and she looked like a storybook elf.
What I think both the OP and my comments are trying to address, though, are those comments that pick out a specific trait in our kids, that is NOT the generic baby or kid cuteness, that is usually a feature associated with an ethnic group, or is a feature that is ambiguous and THAT is why the comment is arising.
>I believe in extending people charity and taking them in the best way consistent with the information I have, just in case they’re not the way some would assume them to be.
I’ve been told by (white) friends that I may be reading into the comments I sometimes get about my daughter. I freely admit that and so I’ve taken to NOT being as harsh as I must seem on this particular thread. Please believe me, I am the one in the supermarket line putting on a half-smile and biting my cheek. I’ve not commented, I’ve muttered thanks, and even mentioned that my husband looks a lot like me (he’s usually not there at the time). I’ve given quizzical glances thinking people would sense my discomfort and talk about something else. I’ve even said, “Hey, genetics is wacky!” and tried to change the subject.
I’ve asked my spouse to tell me honestly if I’m overreacting, or if he doesn’t see these incidents that way at all - he’s good with telling me things I may not want to hear. He’s been present for some comments, and not others.
He said something the other night about the most recent comment: “I hear lots of “cute baby” comments, but this is the first time in my life that people talk so much about skin.”
And see, that’s the rub for me. If a stranger or acquaintance talks about my kid’s long lashes (from her dad, not me), or how much hair she has, or how tall she is for her age (she regularly passes for a 2 year old, until you see her walking unsteadily, and the lack of speech), I will agree, they’re her best physical features so far. They are also not isolated to any ethnic group, and not calling out or questioning her background.
But when the FIRST thing people say is “Oh, she looks like Snow White!” or “Where did she get that pale skin from?” and I’m standing RIGHT THERE, there is no way that I cannot read that as an innocent “cute baby” comment. They are talking skin color, something I have personally never said or even heard said about white infants. The NEXT thing out of their mouths has usually been, “She’s so pretty!” How can I not connect the two?
I realized recently that an outright known bigot (who is unavoidable at some family functions) has used the same tone of voice as the likely not-really-racist, well-meaning strangers I meet, to talk about my daughter’s skin color (something she remarks on as much as humanly possible).
That probably means that it’s coming from the same place, because we are all part of this flawed, bigoted society. There is an unspoken “lucky her!” in that tone, and that is unacceptable to me.
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 10:02 am ¶
Karen wrote:
h sophia wrote that when approached by strangers who ask about/comment on their religion, “[s]ome Muslim women feel it’s a form of da’wah (a teaching opportunity).” It interests me that this puts a name and a positive spin on something that comes up here often, namely the idea that anyone has a responsibility to educate random strangers about anything, particularly about ways in which the random person differs from the potential educator. This name and spin are not part of the dominant culture in the US, to the extent that there is a dominant culture. They are not part of the “American dream” of individualism and equality, liberty, and justice. Without knowing much about Islam, I imagine da’wah to be something that is considered good to do, something that a Muslim could get “credit” for, without it being a requirement to ceaselessly be the teacher for random people who might not really care much or even have good intentions. It seems like a constructive way to think about it, anyway.
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 10:40 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>Without knowing much about Islam, I imagine da’wah to be something that is considered good to do, something that a Muslim could get “credit” for
As did I with h sophia’s comment, and I can see the potential benefits. It actually reminded me of the concept of a mitzvah (”commandment” in Hebrew), which is used colloqially to talk about unexpected favors and kindnesses, especially towards strangers.
The drawback, though, is in how these random strangers might come up to someone willing to teach. There is a world of difference between someone asking questions with respect and admitting their own ignorance or lack of expertise, and someone demanding an explanation for one’s presence or even their very existance.
Posted 26 Mar 2008 at 12:10 pm ¶
Tea wrote:
I’m half black half white, 18 years old. I’ve gotten the “wow, you and your mom (who’s white) look so different” “is she your nanny?” “Are you adopted?” During school, from elementary to high school, I wanted to fit in so badly I took part in making fun of my ethnic background, allowing friends to call me Oreo (she looks black, but she’s white on the inside! as if you can be anything but yourself on the inside. race isn’t a personality), letting people make incredulous comments on my hair (it feels like steel wool…) and it’s seriously damaged my self image on top of all the other teenage self conscious issues. I wish i had voiced my issues to my parents, because they probably could have helped me out.
Posted 29 Apr 2008 at 3:33 pm ¶
h sofia wrote:
Karen & Lyonside - Yes, it’s true that da’wah is something one gets spiritual “credit” for as a Muslim, so even tho it might be difficult (or annoying) from time to time, it’s seen as part of the challenge (in a good way) of being a Muslim. There is, of course, a larger goal of spreading the message of Islam, and trying to make the society a safer place for other Muslims through engagement.
I don’t know that multiracial families or individuals are necessarily out there trying to spread a message of inter/multi racial possibilities. LOL.
But speaking personally, I still carry that sort of attitude with me in my interracial marriage. When the Asian lady at the nail salon expresses surprise that I have an Asian husband (I’m black), I don’t see that as unreasonable.
The main thing that bothers me in people’s reactions - and the thing I want to express disapproval of - is the idea that somehow I’m “bettered” as a black woman by being with a non black man. I notice people think black is better when it’s diluted - or made “less black” somehow. That pisses me off, and I try to combat that mindset in people (who are sometimes black, sadly!) whenever I approach it.
Posted 30 Apr 2008 at 1:53 pm ¶
Dana Hoey wrote:
Sorry about the jack**s Meera. I found out a couple of things about my white self from this post - a white person compulsively complimenting a mixed ethnicity child is definitely patronizing and reflect a bias towards the Euro side. I think that’s absolutely correct and it explains why it always brings up a sweat when I compliment a child of mixed background. I never compliment a blondy; its just an annoying given that the child is culturally approved and seems excessive. And beauty is of course the wrong way to assess a child; I wonder now why I thought its ok to say such things about my pal’s biracial child. I am going to cut that out.
I wonder about Hawaii - the discussion of people’s ethnic background is front and center there, often with potentially racist pidgen language attached, (pake for chinese, haole for white etc). I like the terms flying around so much; its different from the chronic suppression, anxiety and ignorance that we have around this white-dominated mainland town. Also the amount or percentage of Hawaiian blood is a point of pride (and haole blood can be a corresponding shame though its better to be haole “Portuguese” instead of missionary, which is an inversion of the whole degrees of whiteness thing). On the other hand, I have met local people there who have a bit of a phobia about African Americans (being perceived as such) so its definitely not utopia.
Would people say that in general its better to swing all the ethnic info around in conversation? I imagine that depends on the mix of the crowd - if everybody shares an equal sense of difference and uniqueness it works better. What do you think?
Anyway Meera hope you are well and Texas is good outside of playground weirdos.
Dana
Posted 07 May 2008 at 9:49 am ¶