Trackbacks & Pings

1. Go vote for Kiri Davis’s “A Girl Like Me”! at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 05 Apr 2007 at 3:28 pm

   […] aren’t immune, as she demonstrates in her black/white doll test. You might have seen me blog about it at Anti-Racist Parent a couple months […]

2. Tyra Show explores kids and race at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 30 Apr 2007 at 7:00 am

   […] Tyra Banks Show is going to explore children’s concepts of race. I hope they’ll include Kiri Davis’s film “A Girl Like Me,” since it would tie in beautifully to this topic. Here’s the description: Does skin color make […]

3. Are eyelids the no. 1 beauty concern in the Asian community? at Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture on 29 May 2007 at 7:22 pm

   […] Kiri Davis, the young filmmaker who created the phenomenal short film A Girl Like Me […]

Comments

1. Lyonside wrote:

   I remember this documentary, and it’s scary how far we (haven’t) come.

   Saw something in church yesterday from the choir loft: a mom w/ 3 kids, all 4 white - ages about 7, 5, and 3, give or take. The thing that stood out for me was the black baby doll that the 3 year old had. It made me smile because while it should be no big deal, it’s honestly something I haven’t SEEN. I may be in a child’s room and see a token or two, but I have never seen a black doll special enough to come to church in the hands of a white child.

   I don’t know the family, but if I did, I think I’d count them in an ARP, just on that one impression.

   Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 10:13 am ¶

2. Dawn wrote:

   In a book about raising kids with healthy bodies and healthy body image (Real Kids Come in Real Sizes) I was struck by the narrator who wrote that she was so focused on NOT emphasizing beauty that she forgot to tell her daughter that she WAS beautiful. She said, “You’re smart, you’re strong” but forgot to say “you’re pretty.”

   So instead of ignoring people’s physical attributes, we try to make note of attractiveness of all kinds in the same way we note other god-given talents. Like, yeah, Corbin Bleu is a great dancer but he also has great hair. Or our friend A is fun to have around but she also has a smile that goes on for days.

   I also think it helps that despite being white and despite having blue eyes, I sure don’t fit the Western ideal for prettiness (I’m too fat for that!) and yet I make a point of demonstrating high self-esteem even if I have to fake it on my less stellar days.

   I’d be fooling myself if I thought that I could totally overcome racism’s effect on both of my kids — I just try to make our home a haven so that they have a good place to start their own journeys.

   Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 11:21 am ¶

3. SoulSnax wrote:

   As a newly minted dad. I’m taking swift action to make sure that our self-denigrating white supremacist Filipino family does not let my daughter feel any less beautiful because of her Filipino features.

   Here’s what I’ve been doing:
   - I ONLY spend my money on media that advances a positive image of diversity. The litmus test is: “Does this advance the image of diversity in a positive, non-stereotypical way?” If it does, then I spend my money on it. If not, I avoid it. I went to go see Red Doors, The Motel, and Harold & Kumar when they came out in theaters. I avoided Mission Impossible III, Ocean’s Twelve, Memoirs of a Geisha, the list goes on and on…

   - If I really, really have to consume non-diverse media, I find “alternative means” of obtaining it (e.g.: Chinatown). I don’t want the “diversity-ignorant” producers to think that we want more crap, so I don’t give them my money. Besides, I think those old Chinese ladies on Mott Street need the money more than Richard Bay does.

   - I am aware that TiVo collects and shares (sells?) data on its subscribers’ viewing habits. So, I apply the same litmus test to my TiVo, I give a ThumbsDown to shows like Friends, One Tree Hill, Desperate Housewives, Men in Trees, and other such crap. I give a ThumbsUp to shows like Lost, Grey’s Anatomy, Heroes and other shows that offer our children positive portrayals of diversity.

   - Lastly, my New Year’s resolution is to take a proactive approach to putting my money where my mouth is. I keep detailed records of the money I save from NOT giving it to “diversity-ignorant” media producers, and I donate it to the SoulSnax Challenge on a regular basis: http://www.donorschoose.org/donors/viewChallenge.html?id=417. All proceeds go to educational programs I selected on DonorsChoose.org that mitigate the demand for inherently racist media by inoculating our children from the lure of such pop culture through innovative educational programs. If you’re looking for a place to put your extra cash, please have a look at the individual programs, and consider donating.

   Okay, now my question to other ARPs is: Do you come from a family of self-denigrating white supremacists? If so, how in the world do you deal with them? I really need your help on this, because I’m just about ready to b!+c# slap all those Nazis in my family who denigrate my baby daughter for her special Filipino features.

   Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 11:23 am ¶

4. Rachel wrote:

   Carmen, I hear you. When my (half-Korean) daughter was a baby, Koreans would always comment “big eyes, big eyes”, like it was a compliment. I never knew what to say, but it really bothered me on a lot of different levels.

   I do think it’s important for kids to see people of different races around them in the real world, in books, and on TV. Children’s TV has come a long way, thank goodness.

   And Lyonside, I’m white and I had a much-loved black doll in the 70s. My mom taught at a mostly-black school, so maybe that had something to do with it. I wouldn’t give us too much credit, though.

   Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 11:30 am ¶

5. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

   Rachel, yeah it’s always awkward to deal with problematic compliments. I still haven’t quite figured out the best approach.

   Dawn, you bring up a great point though. Because I definitely think that parents need to strike a balance between not over-emphasizing physical appearance over other traits, but then also giving kids permission to feel good about the way they look.

   Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 12:07 pm ¶

6. Meera wrote:

   When I was a kid, an old family friend was styling my hair for my six-year-old birthday party and asked my mom (loudly) why my hair wasn’t any straighter. And “where did she get those lips from?” It didn’t sit with me too well. Fifteen years later, I was in Cote d’Ivoire, West Africa, going through customs as four African women frisked me while simultaneously complimenting me (in French) on how light my skin was. Damn that colonialism; this is the world we live in.

   My kids are three different colors (ranging from light almond to toasty caramel) with three different hair textures (ranging from golden curls to kinda coarse). All of their features are quite similar, but the girls’ coloring is at polar extremes. I know they will hear comments (not from us and hopefully not from the extended family) about how different they look.

   My husband and I already know that part of our job will be to tell BOTH of the girls how beautiful they are. Constantly. I know some might think this is the wrong approach because they feel it might give females the wrong idea about what’s important (valuing beauty over brains), but for girls of color it’s just DIFFERENT. Society doesn’t automatically consider them beautiful. The media gives them far too much to be up against.

   My husband and I know that – as parents of black/multi-racial children – we not only have to follow in the footsteps of our our ancestors and prepare them all to “work twice as hard to be seen as half as good”, but we’ll also have to give our daughters just a little more praise about their physical appearance so that they won’t wish they looked like Paris or Brittney. Or actually end up paying to. We all see the effects that NOT doing that had on Janet and Latoya Jackson! Of course we’ll value creativity and intellect over everything else, praise them for it, etc. (in our house that just comes with the territory), but the emphasis on their beauty is to counter-act the effects of the media.

   The image of the blonde goddess as being ideal isn’t going anywhere, so it’s all about damage control.

   I can’t wait to hear what Kim has to say about this.

   Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 1:05 pm ¶

7. Kim wrote:

   Meera! You called me out. (I was sooo interested to know your take. Hey, Lady.)

   Firstly, can we just nominate that Mommy-with-the-Baby-in-the-Oven for a special something? Internet hugs? Or ( poetry cafe style) keyclicks, keyclicks, keyclicks?

   I mean, ARP-sitings! I am going to start my count today.

   Okay. I love telling my kids how handsome/cute/beautiful/even sassy-cute they are (that seven year old woman-child of mine). And I do make specific mention of their physical selves as attribute. Mind you, not their physical attributes, but their physical selves as. The whole thing, from top to bottom.

   The way that people look at their children and delight in seeing the various pieces of the extended family, grands and their siblings, and even fourth cousins once-twice-thrice removed, I look at my children and see connection to universe and core (in the kink and the curl), waves in the ocean and lasagne noodle edging (food plays a major part in the way Southern Black folk describe people), sunlight on chestnusts (that some people pay boatloads of money to approximate), and Ireland staking her claim as being The Origins of Civilization (indeed!) with a layover at Cape Good Horn.

   If I don’t wake up whispering the Skittles jingle in their ears, “Taste the Rainbow,” someone will surely try to rain on my kids’ parade.

   With all of the reasons that I will not transmit to my girls the “naturalness” of shaving their armpits and legs, I will not transmit to my children that their racial-category-blending and self-definitions place them outside of any norm, or make them in any way aberrant.

   I know that they are coming to adore their Mommy’s “differentness,” (for the life of me people, no need to call it cute, its just an afro!, or a napfro, if you will) for they are beginning to ply me with compliments on the one aspect of myself that makes me radically different from all their friends’ moms. And so I model, very simply, self-love. And I’m with Dawn on this one, who really fits the image of the ‘ideal’ anything? They pin the clothes on those women at the fashion shows!

   But I do worry about them coming into their own about themselves as they do not have the sheltering buffer of a late 1970′ and early ’80’s Harlem (Shut yo’ mouth!). Seriously. Earth, Wind and Fire, LTD, James Ingram , Stevie Wonder, and (gotta do it) a young LL telling us how divine we are.

   How can my girls grow to understand that their beauty is innate, and radiant? Only if I tell them so.

   And how can they understand that it does not matter how many times some other adult tells them how beautiful they are ; that it doesn’t mean anything if they are not considerate, keen and generous? Only if I enforce that I know how beautiful their souls are when they are in full mode.

   I also like to throw in my grandmother’s favorite finger-wagging warning admonition bordering on reproach (said it before, but it’s perfect for this thread, so…) “Kimmalee, I don’t care how pretty a woman’s face is, if she got ugly ways - she ugly!”

   Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 1:59 pm ¶

8. Julia wrote:

   Ooh, such a good series of questions!

   As a white parent of a white child, I think its important to teach appreciation of all beauty (regardless of race or sex - let’s not forget that boys, too, need to feel attractive). For me, as with so many other issues, the easiest way to do that is through exposure.

   I am lucky in that our community happens to be quite diverse already. It makes it much easier for my child to observe people of every make, which leads to questions from her and teaching opportunities for me. We also have a strange stereotype here of finding “mixed” people particularly beautiful. I distinctly remember having conversations with friends growing up about how beautiful our mixed friends were and how God must be compensating in some way for the crap they had to put up with from both sides. (I’m still not sure that stereotype is any better than others, but it certainly qualifies as different.)

   For me, growing up, exposure to lots of other races (particularly black and hispanic) made me appreciate the qualities they had that I was jealous of: For instance, I was insanely jealous of the acrobatic feats my black girl friends could pull off with their hair; and the fact that they could go days or weeks without washing it seemed like a huge luxury to me. Later, in high school, I admired my black friends apparent ease with their body image - appreciating their curves and denegrating the stick-figure white-chick model held up in the media. I marvelled over the beautiful skin of my hispanic friends and their spectacular hair, which they could french-brain on their own before cross-country track meets. In fact, the first woman I ever identified as “beeeeyoutiful” to my mom was the mother of a fellow kindergartener. She was tall, black, lithe, and stunning. I was so overcome that I couldn’t muster the courage to tell her how pretty I thought she was. My mom did it for me.

   And, as Dawn said, the white ideal of beauty isn’t something easy to attain even for white folks. I’m blonde, blue-eyed, and relatively thin. I’m sure I qualify as “pretty” by most standards. But I always felt left flat by that - devoid of the “specialness” that my friends of color emitted. I was white bread, as people always reminded me. And who wants white bread when you can have marble rye?

   My daughter, fortunately, displays many features that are wholly unique. By far, she gets the most comments about her curly hair. And in the summer, when her skin turns olive-y, she gets many comments on her “coloring”. Then the commenter glances at me and tries to surmise if her father is of color. I just let them keep guessing.

   I’m really grateful that the comments she gets so far (at the ripe old age of two) are about special and unique qualities. And I try my best to even out the physical comments with those about her abilites and talents.

   Well, that was long-winded. Thanks for the great topic!

   Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 2:52 pm ¶

9. Meera wrote:

   “Kimmalee, I don’t care how pretty a woman’s face is, if she got ugly ways - she ugly!”

   If that’s not the truth!

   Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 3:51 pm ¶

10. Stephanie wrote:

    My sisters and I used to talk about how the image of the thin blonde being ideal just didn’t seem that realistic. We felt that a lot has to do with confidence, noting that my heavier blonde sister who was comfortable with her weight got more attention than the blonde sister who always fought it, despite that they could freely trade clothes.

    Me? Pale , thin, burnette, the type who burns rather than tans, so too white for many people’s ideal of the tanned beauty. Always got attention right between what those two got. We always found the differences interesting, since it wasn’t entirely in line with what the media teaches.

    Due to their half Italian father, my kids were born with better tans than I can ever get. But I try not to focus on that as the most important thing. I’d rather my kids be happy with their bodies than excessively concerned with some media ideal. My sisters and I managed it over time; I have no idea exactly how, and I hope to bless my kids with that same comfort.

    Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 5:18 pm ¶

11. Jae Ran wrote:

    This is such a great question Carmen. It comes up a lot in our household.

    My kids do not look straight up Korean, whatever that is supposed to mean, and they definitely do not look like a typical Anglo-American either. So that “ethnically ambiguous” look brings then a lot of questions because people just can’t NOT categorize.

    Because I am adopted, I am not reflected in my side of the family, so I don’t have Korean parents discussing my children’s looks. As they (hopefully) take part in Asian American communities, I know this will probably come up.

    My daughter especially has always prided herself on her “Korean” side, and thus has wanted to look like me. So she laments the curly hair and her body shape (from her dad’s side). When she is around me and my Asian friends, she wants to look more like me (straight black hair, etc.) But I see this less when around non-Asians.

    And, since we’ve been watching a lot of Korean dramas lately, we also discuss the impossible beauty standards that are upheld in these shows too. I’m trying to teach her to be able to critique ALL media, not just American media; and as well, teach her that other countries (such as Korea) are oftentimes subject to the same biased representations of beauty as we are here. Case in point, eyelid surgery for Asian women.

    In addition to a lot of what I term “corrective action” (which involved critiquing televison and movie actors, singers and entertainers and models) and talking about the false portrayal they give to the rest of the world in terms of such a limited framework of “beauty” we also talk a LOT about our society’s tendency to attribute certain gender stereotypes as “good looking.” Case in point, we have many friends from the GLBT community and many of them do not fit the stereotypic societal norms of “beauty.” So we talk about how our society expects women to look a certain way, especially in very feminine ways, to be considered “beautiful.” Same for men.

    When she asks me who I think is “hot” (she’s 13, this is the big thing with her friends) I can tell her that I might like certain actors/entertainers based on their talents, but I don’t base my opinon of them on their looks. Not that this alone will counter all the messages she’ll receive from peers and media, but I’m hoping in the back of her mind, it will help.

    Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 5:31 pm ¶

12. joan wrote:

    Regarding awkward and inappropriate compliments: in my community of adoptive families with Ethiopian kids, a few parents have reported this non-compliment: “Your child is so beautiful! She doesn’t look African at all!” or “Her features are so delicate! Not like Africans!” Ugh.

    Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 5:32 pm ¶

13. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    Joan - ah yes, the outright racist compliment. Jen and I actually did a whole videocast about this phenomenon back in the day. You can check it out on YouTube here:
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=1HjmNjV2-QQ

    The one I get a lot is “You’re too pretty to be Chinese!” Um, thanks.

    Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 5:36 pm ¶

14. margaret wrote:

    This has become a big question in my mind. My DD is only two years old and I realize kids start picking up on messages all around them from a very early age. So, I want to start paying attention to things I say and what she sees on TV, etc.

    First I tell her just about every day that she is so beautiful. She really does have the most beautiful face to me, so I tell her all the time. Her eyes are magnificent. Gosh, I hope I don’t make her conceited!

    I’ve been very careful on who and what I say are “pretty” or “beautiful” around her. Someone bought her some Disney outfits a while back and one of the shirts has a picture of Cinderella on it. I caught myself saying -”oh, isn’t she so pretty!”. First, I don’t really think she’s all that pretty. Second, I never want to narrow down my daughter’s idea of what beauty is.

    I think the people around her on a daily basis are likely to also agree with me and I’ve never heard any kind of commentary on beauty around her that I would disagree with (except in China, when strangers would compliment those of us who had children with double lids). She is also around a very diverse group of children and adults all day.

    Lyonside - I’m white and I also had black dolls as a child….both “Barbie” type dolls and baby dolls.

    Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 8:33 pm ¶

15. Kim wrote:

    Julia,

    I’m glad to hear from you, and hope you continue to read and contribute.

    I have to admit to feeling a little…freaked out…at some of your comments, and know you only sought to extol and appreciate some acknowledge difference between you and other girls (girls of color).

    I think that while we’re all on the subject of appreciating the differences, it goes without saying that appreciating the paleness as natural feature means not to wish it away, dismiss it, or imply it to be of less than optimum desirability. It seems that ocusing so much on how one tans, and the curliness of one’s hair, in the midst of a family which does not widely produce persons with these ‘traits,’ serves to potentially ‘oddify’ the child who is told that their exceptional aspects are the beautiful aspects.

    I am not coming down on you, and I know the vein in which you spoke, but it is important that we also speak of those beautiful freckles and the red hair when they are present, or the hair that catchs sunlight and shimmers like a crystalline structure in formation, or the resemblance to a child in a Cassatt painting.

    I remember the girls in gymnastics class absolutely in awe of my ability to do two french braids all by myself before we took to the bars , and their numerous, interesting questions (what is hair grease? grease?) I remember that they let it go when we powdered up our hands and went into formation, and just let me be. I hadn’t thought about in years, in fact.

    Sometimes I hear other Black women speak about having sat in the schoolyard during the middle school years who combed and designed hair styles for the girls with “good hair.” I am always taken aback at the fawning, and the innate sense of wanting to “touch” that many of these women still have now when it comes to my own girls’ hair, because I think it points to some unresolved something there.

    Well. Like I said, I’m truly glad you’re sharing, and this is a conversation, so don’t let me scare you off. I also listen (I am working on it all the time).

    Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 10:58 pm ¶

16. CScarlet wrote:

    I think that a good book is “Children Just Like Me”, from UNICEF, that features children from tons of countries (including the U.S. and Canada), their favorite foods, their schools, their family life, their favorite things to do, what languages they speak, etc etc. It is great because there are all these smiling children, usually from ages 7 to 12, over 140 different nationalities, they range all over the place in regards to class, and of course in race. It was my favorite book as a child. I don’t know if it’s pertinent to this topic, but it can definitely be used to show how different people look, and what is considered beautiful all over, and how there’s no one standard. And it shows children, for children.

    http://tinyurl.com/29kyrl

    Posted 22 Jan 2007 at 11:34 pm ¶

17. Kim wrote:

    I love books like that. I’ll look for it, thanks.

    Found a title that I loved, with captions every couple of pages about what children understand the world they will be inheriting to be: “The Future According to Kids”, c. 1979, Nickelodeon Books, A Roundtable Press Book

    Posted 23 Jan 2007 at 1:34 pm ¶

18. Ally wrote:

    I actually felt a lot like Julia growing up. I had long blond hair and blue eyes and felt very run of the mill and felt that children of color had something special that I didn’t. I think this also had something to do with the fact that I was of the first generation in my Italian-American family to have that coloring and as a child who felt very alone and adrift in the world longed to have darker coloring to identify with my greater heritage (yes, there’s quite a distance between black and italian, but these are the thoughts of an 8 yo.).

    Of course now that my blond hair has gone brown and my body is flabby I’m pretty far from the norm of beauty and I realize far too late how that blond hair and blue eyes made me special in the eyes of those around me. My nicknames ranged from Miss America to Beauty and I have to laugh at how my naivete assumed that the world saw me as mundane and that few black girls I grew up around in our very segregated community must of course have been seen as special.

    I have a blond hair blue-eyed two year old boy and I feel like I’ve ducked the issue in a way. Not true, but it’s less charged than if he were a girl. Overall, we are focused on exposing him to all colors and cultures as much as possible but I don’t have a game plan on how to shape or influence his aesthetic ideals as he grows up other than as a part of teaching him that we are all special, we all have gifts, and that appearance does not make the person, actions and words and how we treat others does.

    Posted 23 Jan 2007 at 2:17 pm ¶

19. DS-L wrote:

    I don’t know if anyone mentioned it but there was an intereting article in the Boston Globe magazine this weekend about ethnic plastic surgery — changes to ASian eyes, westernizing noses etc and whether the folks getting the surgeries had bought into western notions of beauty. If I was a techie wizard I could find and link it but I bet you all could do it as well to share with your readers.
    DS-L

    Posted 23 Jan 2007 at 2:59 pm ¶

20. Margie wrote:

    Helping my kids (both Korean) find their unique beauty has been as much about alerting them to society’s skewed standards as it’s been about letting them know every day how beautiful they are as people - not bodies, but people.

    They understand that beauty is far more than what the media (not just the US media, but media around the world) would have you believe: that beauty is more than fitting a standard that’s unachievable for the majority of the population, and more than what you put on your body.

    My fear is that they understand it in the context of a supportive home and supportive friends who come from all races and ethnicities. I hope the foundation we’ve created sustains them in a world that’s far less hospitable and loaded with negative stereotypes.

    Posted 23 Jan 2007 at 5:24 pm ¶

21. Carmen Van Kerckhove wrote:

    DS-L, I think this is the article you mean:
    http://tinyurl.com/yof77q

    Posted 23 Jan 2007 at 5:37 pm ¶

22. Tistarn wrote:

    As a very concerned older sister of an adopted transracial sister I love more than any human being I have ever encountered, I am seeking any means possible to help inform my family on ways to responsibly 1)be a white family raising a child who was born in China and 2) how to not forget the debt we owe to the women in China whose babies we have taken (as in finding ways to support the organiztions there and in the US to stop the things that led to the current need for these childeren to have homes)…and I am seeking any advice I might be able to get on web sites, books and organizations. I would be very grateful, as I am at a place of confusion, guilt and love, and want to find any way to support this amazing child to grow into the brilliant woman I know she will someday be.
    Thank you.

    Posted 24 Jan 2007 at 11:53 am ¶

23. mtevc wrote:

    Glad to see the film getting more play, as I said to Carmen earlier.

    Here are my thoughts…as a light skinned black person (with long and wild hair) I remember being sandwiched somewhere in hell, between the white girls flipping their straight blond hair and getting attention for it, and some of the short haired and afroed black girls who criticized me and treated me like crap, though I understand now that some of the reactions were from feelings of their own personal pain…

    I even distinctly remember the feelings of seeing the teacher braid the hair of some of the white girls and compliment them on their hair, while the black girls got ignored for their looks. Then I would get crap from the kinkier haired black girls (who felt really ostracized) and threw it back on someone, but in this case me and some others like me, with the dumb comments “so you think you’re cute because you have long hair, etc…”

    I’m not surprised by the film, but it’s weird how still, even in 2007, value comes from this so-called idea of “traditional beauty.”

    My contention is that even white women need to think about it all, especially since we aren’t a country of Swedes, yet everyone seems to be dyeing their hair blond…Why??? Imagine the man hours saved and the health improved if white women stopped dyeing their hair. I got into a deep discussion of this “standard practice” with a white female friend and neighbor, and when I broke it down for her politely, she couldn’t explain exactly why she had to be blond. Why not red?

    Posted 24 Jan 2007 at 7:01 pm ¶

24. Penelope Low wrote:

    Interestingly enough, my Amerasian daughter whose dad is white has skin that tans very easily. He’s from the South so they may well have had some slave blood in their ancestry. In the summer, she often has comments about how beautiful her skin tone is so I don’t agree that the fair, European features are the only ones that are appreciated, although, some people are surprised that she is not part polynesian.

    Posted 25 Sep 2007 at 12:23 am ¶

25. Veronica wrote:

    Thank you Carmen. I felt like I was the only one in the world who felt like how you do. I am only 19, but I promised myself a long time ago that I will raise my future children not to be racist. I feel like I am being brainwashed constantly to like ‘white beauty’. It is driving me nuts beause I am Asian, and I’m fighting hard to fight the racism within my family which rooted from my culture. It is so hard, I feel like if I can’t beat them, I might as well join them. I just want to show everyone your message so that I have a back up, but I don’t want people to think I am this crazy person, trying to fight for something out of nothing.

    Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 8:36 am ¶

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